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Role Prejudices and Stereotypes

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Troy    6,627
Troy

I'm noticing that prejudices, stereotyping, and projection are kind of rampant in the Michael Community, in general, and a tiny bit of a problem here on TLE. I want to nip this in the bud and get all of us on board to not go in that direction. 

 

So let's just get it out in the open and into the air so we can address these issues that are counter to the teachings.

 

Some questions to start the conversation...

 

  • What are your stereotypes of the Roles? 
  • Do you dismiss the responsibility of getting to know a person based on the Role?
  • Do you justify your dislike of a person based on the Role?
  • Do you judge the Roles as monolithic?

 

Please be thoughtful and patient and honest in both your expression and your listening to each other. I want this to be a thread for calling ourselves out on our own prejudices, not a Role bashing festival. 

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Bobby    6,120
Bobby
1 hour ago, Troy said:

I'm noticing that prejudices, stereotyping, and projection are kind of rampant in the Michael Community, in general, and a tiny bit of a problem here on TLE. I want to nip this in the bud and get all of us on board to not go in that direction. 

 

So let's just get it out in the open and into the air so we can address these issues that are counter to the teachings.

 

Some questions to start the conversation...

 

  • What are your stereotypes of the Roles? 
  • Do you dismiss the responsibility of getting to know a person based on the Role?
  • Do you justify your dislike of a person based on the Role?
  • Do you judge the Roles as monolithic?

 

 

Alright all you Warrior hate-ahs.  Here's ya chance.  Hit me with your best shot  :)

 

Edited by Troy
To fix video and make responsive
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RachelL    461
RachelL

One major thing I've come to see is that Warriors can be extremely loving and loyal in their devotion to issues. There is oftentimes a good heart behind their fight.

 

I think this can apply to Soul Age and Cadre/Entity as well. It is so easy to forget that we have all been misguided Baby and Young Souls at some point. Also, we are all fragments of Tao. It is also easy to ignore this with too much of a focus on Cadre/Entity demarcations.

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KurtisM    2,625
KurtisM

I've researched a lot into the Roles to really flesh them out, but I can share my thoughts:

I'll specifically say how I've come to know each Role as an evolving sense of being:
Servers used to be nourishing caregivers who can over-extend themselves by social contracts to care in -Bondage. Now I can see how they may be apathetic, manipulative and abusive- as well as highly busy in handling their karmas with amazing tact as a facet of +Service.
Priests used to be more religious and spiritual. Now I can see their range from being a compassionate and patient guide, to a delusional control-freak about what spirituality and righteousness entails, as well as prone to turning a blind eye to suffering in favor of a perfect world in -Zeal.
Artisans used to feel more dreamy with a great extent of calculated imagination, but prone to fantasizing, denying & lying compulsively. Now I see Artisans more as energizers, revitalizers, nurturers of art and intimacy with a rich depth- and profoundly interested in studying, refining and creating the beautiful structure of things they specialize in.
Sages are mostly the same, I could see the range in Sage from the more clownish dramatizing to an audience, to the wise guru who exemplifies ancient wisdom and innocence. I still see Oration as sensationalist babblemouthing though.


I've always known the full extent of Warriors since I was young for some reason. I knew they were loyal defenders, deeply devoted, courageous fighters and lovers who stand up for causes etc.
Kings have definitely evolved from being those who have some sort of dignified, calm aura about them, with cruel hearts in -Tyranny and solid +Mastery of any trade. Now I see how they can be quite fractured, perfectionist, compassionate and choosing to be alive because they care not just delegate and control people like puppets.
Scholars I saw as only gaining +Knowledge from factual to-the-book research, but now they have donned the label of sometimes being highly reactionary and presumptuous in -Theory, rather than only as some sort of shut-in recluse who is pretty much 100% Sheldon from Big Bang Theory only more quiet. Now I see Scholars as avid experiencers that dive into everything, drawing their catalogue of information through hands-on work getting into the thick of things, and even as being quite chameleon.

As for these:

Do you dismiss the responsibility of getting to know a person based on the Role?

Do you justify your dislike of a person based on the Role?

Do you judge the Roles as monolithic?


... no, no and not much.

Edited by KurtisM
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Troy    6,627
Troy

For me it was always Artisans who got my epic eye roll and exasperated sighs. When someone is flaky, scattered, demanding, entitled, making others do the work of thinking for them, ignoring instructions, and always complaining about life but resetting back to square one even after lengthy and deep conversations about how to improve life... I presume they are ARTISANS. I thought this was how all Artisans were until I started paying attention and realized that Artisans could actually be entirely the opposite of this! I think it's a matter of Positive vs Negative Poles, but now some of the most inspiring sources of structure, discipline, responsibility, calm, balance, consistency, self-reliance and ethics are Artisans. I discovered I wasn't *wrong* about how some Artisans show up in the world, but now I never presume I know an Artisan just from the term. 

 

And for for me it isn't Sages who can dominate a room with a neediness for attention or long-winded stories that force the whole room to endure endlessly... it's the SCHOLAR! As soon as a Scholar starts a tale I brace myself for an hour of courtesy nodding and only listening. Conversations are over at that point. Just listening and nodding and waiting for that one magical moment when they take a breath and you can escape! LOL

 

So those are my confessions. I confess these with total love and affection and apology to my beloved Artisans and Scholars! 

 

It's true that prejudices are usually based in some sort of truth, but never the whole truth. So I always prefer the whole truth of a person and aim for that even if my experiences have told me something different. Michael calls that "experiential differentiation." It's when we actively remember that a new person or experience is entirely new and its own thing, not condemned to the past. 

 

 

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DianeHB    4,371
DianeHB

@Troy I'm sorry, but the prejudices about Scholars are entirely true. I live with one and frequently have to tune out his monologues. ;) 

 

Joking aside, I think prejudice is more about a conclusion of who someone is based on their role/overleaves, but we will still have observations of how certain roles tend to behave, because that's exactly what we study. With prejudice there is always a sense of conclusion and condemnation. I think when we're in our own negative poles, we have the tendency to define others by their negative poles. 

 

I actually don't remember having any strong prejudices about roles or overleaves, possibly because I wasn't part of the older generation of Michael community for that long. I remember frequently being the subject of Michael prejudice, though, because of being King, Server-cast, or having Dominance (incorrectly channeled). And as a newer Michael student and pre-4th-IM, I thought I had to act in certain ways because I was a King. So my prejudice was more self-directed. I've also had certain expectations of people (not really negative ones) because I knew of them as certain roles, and sometimes I'm proven wrong and I learn more about the nuances of those roles. I think that's kind of the process of learning about personalities though.

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Heidi    3,088
Heidi
2 hours ago, Troy said:

And for for me it isn't Sages who can dominate a room with a neediness for attention or long-winded stories that force the whole room to endure endlessly... it's the SCHOLAR! As soon as a Scholar starts a tale I brace myself for an hour of courtesy nodding and only listening. Conversations are over at that point. Just listening and nodding and waiting for that one magical moment when they take a breath and you can escape! LOL

 

@Troy OH, NO YOU DI'INT!!!   ;)

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H2nna    701
H2nna
4 hours ago, Troy said:

For me it was always Artisans who got my epic eye roll and exasperated sighs. When someone is flaky, scattered, demanding, entitled, making others do the work of thinking for them, ignoring instructions, and always complaining about life but resetting back to square one even after lengthy and deep conversations about how to improve life... I presume they are ARTISANS. I thought this was how all Artisans were until I started paying attention and realized that Artisans could actually be entirely the opposite of this! I think it's a matter of Positive vs Negative Poles, but now some of the most inspiring sources of structure, discipline, responsibility, calm, balance, consistency, self-reliance and ethics are Artisans. I discovered I wasn't *wrong* about how some Artisans show up in the world, but now I never presume I know an Artisan just from the term. 

Hey now @Troy! Artisans can be extremely strategic and stuctured! ?

 

For me it's maybe Sages, the number of times I've been "forced"  to attend a show, just because someone needs extra attention and an audience happens to be there....?

I wish Michael would use numbers instead of names for the roles, it can be hard for new students to grasp that all roles are equal when they see names like king and server.

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Evelin    1,583
Evelin

Maybe getting to know the Roles is the same process as everything else in the MT -- you simply start from the Negative. Which can include stereotypes.

 

Now that I know so many Roles as Old Souls, stereotypes don't help me with understanding, so I'd like to think I no longer have any. Except for myself, internally I can really kick my own butt with the force of a proper scholarly bookshelf.
LOL... @Troy, your stereotype can be extremely true of male Scholars... As a Scholar myself, yeah I can take long in writing, but speech-wise I'm every bit the dialogue person, and mostly just very quiet. My Scholar cast husband, however, is the exact opposite: writes with military precision, but talks in long full sentences and if interrupted, will START THE SENTENCE OVER (arghhhh!!!).

I had much anger about the negative priestliness, but now that I know my mother's issues aren't Priest-cast-related, I actually like the Priest energy.

Some female Warriors kinda scare me, but otherwise I adore warriors, you always know where you stand with them.

 

In answer to other questions:
2) Not anymore. I used to. Now I'm the opposite -- I want to get to know them long before I even think of their overleaves. Which isn't always possible here, or on other Michael forums, but I've developed a habit of forgetting people's profiles when I read their posts.

3) No, it's the other Overleaves that my own Negative poles blame everything for!
4) Not at all, I feel even getting the basic understanding of my own Role is still an ongoing process. There are so many other variables that influence our lives as Personalities much more than the Role. The Role is more of a longer arc thing.

 

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Janet    4,908
Janet

I don't really have any likes or dislikes based on role; the role informs me about a person when I'm seeking to understand why/how they behave the way they do.

 

The one stereotype that I'm guilty of surrounds Servers -- almost without exception the Servers I know seem to go out of their way to be helpful in a behind-the-scenes way, so that now I have a tendency to expect (hope?) that any new Servers I meet will exhibit that behavior. This has been noticeable to me in the East Coast Gathering (which often has a number of Servers participating) vs. TLEGG (which thus far has had few Servers participating). It's not fair, I know, to presume that the Servers will pick up the slack on post-meal cleanup, etc., but they often do just that without others being aware of it. My sister is a Server and bore the brunt of care for my parents without being asked and without complaining, to the point of utter exhaustion before she would let anyone know she needed help. I greatly admire the Servers I know, and I hope they will all learn to ask for help far sooner than they usually do.

 

It's interesting to me that I do not have this same expectation of the Server-cast. This is not to say that Server-cast folks aren't/can't be helpful, but I have not noted any general behavior among the Server-cast that matches what I have experienced among those with the Server role. Perhaps that's just my experience. 

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Bobby    6,120
Bobby

Every Role in its negative pole is going to be annoying and if there is any sort of reaction to a Role, it's likely coming from that perspective.  Even in that restricted state, there is some truth there, like Troy said.  It's really no different than our own Chief Features in their negative poles.  They're simply trying to inform us.  What we do with that information is what's important.

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Uma    3,808
Uma

I have been wracking my brain to figure out if I have any prejudices or stereotypes regarding the Roles, so I naturally thought of the people I have disliked or have had big blowups with, and I came upon an interesting fact: 99% of the Servers I have met have been women--my mother, cousin and many friends, grandmothers.Out of all the people I have gotten Overleaves for (55), only one has been a male Server.  I am just mentioning that here because I noticed it while contemplating this.

 

I have loved and fought with every Role. I also notice that Artisans are particularly easy for me to recognize, although it is not from a negative perspective, so I can't call it a prejudice or stereotype, just a recognition of characteristics. I know that when I meet someone for the first time, my radar goes out and tries to recognize the Role or any other Overleaf I can perceive. In the past, if I wanted a deeper relationship, I used to ask for Overleaves (from my previous channel), and go from there. Most of the recognition that has been validated from that channel was due to past associations rather than Role perception. So...I will keep my eye out for any negative stereotype that may come up, but at this moment I can't think of one.

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Matt    3,485
Matt

I don't have too many prejudices against roles, but i definitely use the stereotypes to have fun with my warrior wife.  It's all in fun, but i love telling her to put her sword away, no battle here, and then she will tell me to go find an easel to paint something, little sensitive artisan, LoL. These stereotypes are great ammunition for a Sage cast to have fun with, LoL.   I was laughing reading your description of Artisan sterotypes @Troy, i don't know why, i just found it funny, maybee because i am for the most part none of those things in this life, but part of realizes that it could be me during the right circumstances.  

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Bobby    6,120
Bobby
41 minutes ago, Uma said:

I have been wracking my brain to figure out if I have any prejudices or stereotypes regarding the Roles, so I naturally thought of the people I have disliked or have had big blowups with, and I came upon an interesting fact: 99% of the Servers I have met have been women--my mother, cousin and many friends, grandmothers.Out of all the people I have gotten Overleaves for (55), only one has been a male Server.  I am just mentioning that here because I noticed it while contemplating this.

 

 

I have a lot of exposure to a male Server and when Martyred can really setoff my own Arrogance CF to the point even of having had the momentary thought of super gluing his lips shut run through my mind :)

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Stickyflames    1,157
Stickyflames
14 hours ago, Troy said:

For me it was always Artisans who got my epic eye roll and exasperated sighs. When someone is flaky, scattered, demanding, entitled, making others do the work of thinking for them, ignoring instructions, and always complaining about life but resetting back to square one even after lengthy and deep conversations about how to improve life... I presume they are ARTISANS. 

 

What a cruel, extremely accurate description of my life!

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Stickyflames    1,157
Stickyflames
8 minutes ago, Stickyflames said:

What a cruel, extremely accurate description of my life!

Of all the artisans i know, i am definately the most stereotypical one. I can attest to that gigantic blindspot of " oh you actually have some power to create your life" . It may make zero sense to none artisan brothers and sisters, but it can ( has) taken YEARS for the obvious to be seen. When it is, the building of deliciousness begins and then I think the order begins. From what i have seen, from my own stereotyping, artisans come as one of two forms: absolute fucking chaos, or the example of order, commitment, creativity. I feel as if artisans are the emobidemnt of the relationship of chaos and order.

it seems as though whichever artisan you are meeting depends entirely on whether they believe they have any power in their life or not. 

Edited by Stickyflames
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Uma    3,808
Uma

@Stickyflames now that you highlight that, I can relate, knowing several Artisans who fit that description from both you and @Troy. But I would call it recognition rather than stereotyping or prejudice.

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Uma    3,808
Uma
3 hours ago, Uma said:

Out of all the people I have gotten Overleaves for (55

I just realized the number is 67, not 55.

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ckaricai    2,539
ckaricai
16 hours ago, Troy said:

I'm noticing that prejudices, stereotyping, and projection are kind of rampant in the Michael Community, in general, and a tiny bit of a problem here on TLE. I want to nip this in the bud and get all of us on board to not go in that direction. 

 

So let's just get it out in the open and into the air so we can address these issues that are counter to the teachings.

 

Some questions to start the conversation...

 

  • What are your stereotypes of the Roles? 
  • Do you dismiss the responsibility of getting to know a person based on the Role?
  • Do you justify your dislike of a person based on the Role?
  • Do you judge the Roles as monolithic?

 

Please be thoughtful and patient and honest in both your expression and your listening to each other. I want this to be a thread for calling ourselves out on our own prejudices, not a Role bashing festival. 

 

I agree and I try not to do it. Admittedly, roles have been a bit difficult for me to suss out, seeing as how it took me nearly two years to validate my priest casting. I just didn't understand priest role in part because i'm not catholic and wasn't really raised religious at all. It's a word that doesn't really doesn't have any personal meaning for me. If Michael had chosen the word Pastor or Reverend, that might have helped somewhat. Anyway, I digress. I have a hard time figuring out people's roles so no, I don't think I stereotype based on this. 

 

Stereotypes: I probably formed stereotypes about scholars and artisans early on. Like, scholars were absent minded professors and artisans were "out there."  But then those two stereotypes are kind of like two sides of the same coin. So it's not a useful guide. And I think the one person I know to be a scholar is more long winded and boring than absent minded. He will talk to you ad nauseum about musical instruments and experimental music even if you are already familiar with the subject! It's the only thing he seems deeply passionate about - to the detriment of everything else. If I ever get his overleaves channeled I will be surprised if he is not a scholar. Anyway, I'm still not too sure about other roles, including my own. I couldn't pick out other warriors. The only thing about warriorness that resonates most to me is the action axis part. The only role i can suss out with any confidence are Artisans in Discrimination because they are sooo out there and have strong opinions. What's more, I do better with this assessment when trying to figure out the roles of musicians. That's about it. 

 

I don't dismiss getting to know people based on roles. I would have to get to know them to even begin to figure out their roles and then I'd start thinking about attitudes. Attitudes jump out at me quicker than other overleaves. So, I don't justify my dislikes of people based on roles. Chances are I'll have too many other non michael teaching things to base my dislike on. LOL 

 

No. Roles are not a monolith. I don't do this with astrology either. I don't really care what other people's sun signs are. 

 

 

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ckaricai    2,539
ckaricai
10 hours ago, Evelin said:

Maybe getting to know the Roles is the same process as everything else in the MT -- you simply start from the Negative. Which can include stereotypes.

 

Now that I know so many Roles as Old Souls, stereotypes don't help me with understanding, so I'd like to think I no longer have any. Except for myself, internally I can really kick my own butt with the force of a proper scholarly bookshelf.
LOL... @Troy, your stereotype can be extremely true of male Scholars... As a Scholar myself, yeah I can take long in writing, but speech-wise I'm every bit the dialogue person, and mostly just very quiet. My Scholar cast husband, however, is the exact opposite: writes with military precision, but talks in long full sentences and if interrupted, will START THE SENTENCE OVER (arghhhh!!!).

I had much anger about the negative priestliness, but now that I know my mother's issues aren't Priest-cast-related, I actually like the Priest energy.

Some female Warriors kinda scare me, but otherwise I adore warriors, you always know where you stand with them.

 

In answer to other questions:
2) Not anymore. I used to. Now I'm the opposite -- I want to get to know them long before I even think of their overleaves. Which isn't always possible here, or on other Michael forums, but I've developed a habit of forgetting people's profiles when I read their posts.

3) No, it's the other Overleaves that my own Negative poles blame everything for!
4) Not at all, I feel even getting the basic understanding of my own Role is still an ongoing process. There are so many other variables that influence our lives as Personalities much more than the Role. The Role is more of a longer arc thing.

 

 

Wait, what about female warriors scares you?

Edited by ckaricai
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Maxim    2,319
Maxim
38 minutes ago, Stickyflames said:

Of all the artisans i know, i am definately the most stereotypical one. I can attest to that gigantic blindspot of " oh you actually have some power to create your life" . It may make zero sense to none artisan brothers and sisters, but it can ( has) taken YEARS for the obvious to be seen. When it is, the building of deliciousness begins and then I think the order begins. From what i have seen, from my own stereotyping, artisans come as one of two forms: absolute fucking chaos, or the example of order, commitment, creativity. I feel as if artisans are the emobidemnt of the relationship of chaos and order.

it seems as though whichever artisan you are meeting depends entirely on whether they believe they have any power in their life or not. 

 

Royce, that was spot on in my life: blindspot of " oh you actually have some power to create your life"   I could create a life but hard to create my life, my preferred life.

 

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Terri Benning    69
Terri Benning
On 5/25/2017 at 10:19 PM, DianeHB said:

I think when we're in our own negative poles, we have the tendency to define others by their negative poles. 

 

 

An astute insight, Diane, and spot on the money. ~ Terri

Edited by Troy
moved reply from inside quoted reply
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AnnaD    2,424
AnnaD

So, here goes the Scholar cast Scholar in theory. 

 

Old Priests- Caring, shepherding, good listeners, capable of sending an invitation out without an expectation/investment of attendance, or a particular outcome, politically shrewd, can be enraged (but way less enraged than younger soul ages) when they confront challenge/questions/hard science/disloyalty from their flock,  capable of giving permission to others to enable others healing.

 

Young soul Priests can be war mongerers, political sharks masquerading as shepherds, benevolent dictators as long as you play their game. Capable of twisting facts to manipulate their vision onto everyone, to the detriment of many. I have been guilty of judging Priests, but the truth is, I still judge the hell out of any Young or Baby soul who exemplifies their soul age negative poles. Soul age negative poles irritate me more than Role negative poles ever can. I can smell Young or Baby soul earlier than I can determine the role, or any other overleaf. 

 

Scholars' - a scholar in theory stands out like balls on a dog. There is the edifice of authority, brittle though it is, with the glaringly conspicuous absence of anecdotal application. It is like guessing at an exam question with a poor understanding of the question, and yet, still trying for a point. At least that is what it feels like to me. Also Scholars can look kind of obsessive about things they are obsessive about. And they can get really verbal about it, beyond the interest of whoever might be "listening" to them. I am guilty of this. Scholars in positive pole of experience comes across as kind of trustworthy, kind of there is an integrity and authenticity to them, which is nice. There is no bullshit theory. 

 

I find it hard to spot other roles. Really hard. I can appreciate expression activity, but it is hard for me to differentiate an Artisan from a Sage. There are so many layers to people that make up people, and I guess like anything it is only possible to tell which role someone is sometimes from their negative pole position, if that. I dislike placing people in boxes, unless they are baby or young souls, as at that stage the baby and young soul box seems to be roomy enough for them. 

 

I like the trustworthiness, reliability and unflakiness of the solid roles. 

I like the creativity and invention and stories of the expression roles.

I like the attentiveness, wellbeing and welfare emphasis of the inspiration roles.

I like the laboratory/museum/test kitchen attitude of the Scholar role. 

 

Thank goodness for the overleaves, and that we can try on different overleaves every single lifetime. Thank god for diversity, experimentation, creativity and mixing it up. If one of the highest truths is allowing yourself to be yourself, even if it looks inexperienced, incomplete, flaky or imposterish, then that surely is preferable to living ones life as a secure but bored fraud.

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Uma    3,808
Uma
10 minutes ago, AnnaD said:

Scholars' - a scholar in theory stands out like balls on a dog.

howling out loud

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Uma    3,808
Uma
2 hours ago, Stickyflames said:

It seems as though whichever artisan you are meeting depends entirely on whether they believe they have any power in their life or not. 

That really applies to the Artisans I know. Great insight.

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