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Marvin Wilkins

Difficult evolution in certain cultures

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Marvin Wilkins    39
Marvin Wilkins

Ok so I'm watching this show called 90 day fiance with my wife.

Although I hate reality shows one couple made me think of difficult IMs.

They are both Jewish she is from Hollywood Florida and he is from Israel and they are married.

They went to see his family in Israel after a year away and his father guilted him for leaving.

What got me thinking is difficulty evolving in these type of cultures or just soul age evolution? 

Thoughts on this anyone?

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Juni    2,219
Juni

Imprinting can be incredibly difficult to deal with-I think the Ms say it's almost impossible to throw it off completely.

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Bobby    5,929
Bobby

Even though I'm not Jewish, I did grow up in a heavily Evangelical Christian household.  The imprinting was and still is attempted to be very controlling.  In the end, you have to care more about yourself and what you think versus what they think.  Your happiness cannot be tied to theirs.  If you're happy then they should be happy for you.  I think with strong imprinting, about the only way to survive it a lot of times is to completely move away from the area so that you are exposed to other things and other people.  It's the only way that you can really compare and see what works best for you.

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Marvin Wilkins    39
Marvin Wilkins

This will kill you.

My mother use to drag my father and sister to church every Sunday.

My father would snore in the pew and I would play with matchbox until the service was over.

One Sunday my Dad was getting impatient cause she was taking too long talking to her church lady friends. 

He turned to me and asked me if I wanted to drive in front to pick her up.

I said sure!!! ( I am 5 years old) the look on their faces when I pulled up was priceless ,they were mortified and the old man caught hell the whole way home and all we could do was laugh hysterically .

Mother was not happy and I never bought into the imprinting she tried to impose.

They divorced when I was 7 but man we had fun.

 

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Luciana Flora    798
Luciana Flora
1 hour ago, Bobby said:

Even though I'm not Jewish, I did grow up in a heavily Evangelical Christian household.  The imprinting was and still in attempted to be very controlling.  In the end, you have to care more about yourself and what you think versus what they think.  Your happiness cannot be tied to theirs.  If you're happy then they should be happy for you.  I think with strong imprintint, about the only way to survive it a lot of times is to completely move away from the area so that you are exposed to other things and other people.  It's the only way that you can really compare and see what works best for you.

I was raised far from religion. I owe it to my father. I always found my father super calm with me. But it seems that he was rather rebellious with his parents. my grandparents.

My grandparents were very catholic. They go to Mass every Sunday. And they made my father go. I could not go. He did not believe, did not see sense in what was taught there.

When he turned 18, he told muy gramdmother, his mother,  he would never go to church again. And yet he promised himself that he would not force his children to have any religion. And so he did. And I think he got a certain dislike of religion. I grew up listening to my father speak ill of religion.

But I enjoyed being raised without religion. I think it made me more open.

 

My father said he was never one of his favorite sons precisely because of what he did. Because he'd gotten away from the way he'd walked away.

 

And he also said that's why we were not the favorite grandchildren. He told me this one day that my sister was upset that she had noticed that our grandmother was not as affectionate as her grandmother's friends.

Edited by Luciana Flora
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AnnaD    2,357
AnnaD

My girlfriend grew up in a small farming town. Her parents were sheep and cow meat farmers, and remain farmers. My girlfriend always was a tomboy, enjoyed playing hockey and cricket, and loved being with the animals and helping her parents with the farm work. She is compassionate and gentle to animals. 

 

The primary school she went to was in a low socioeconomic area. She was very good at physics and maths. She realised that she was lesbian as a teenager and knew that she had to leave her small farming town to broaden her life opportunities and live in a city where, after qualifying as a radiographer she could pursue her love of studying physical education, which she did. The New Zealand city she was living in in the mid 1980s was progressive, had a great vibrant queer, arts and music scene, and was supported by a tertiary university. My girlfriend was able to find herself in the more supportive environment of this liberal city, and she was away from her original  "hometown " , for 16 years. She views her life in the larger city as her hometown as well. She came out to her parents while she was living away from their town, and she knows that her decision to take a risk and making a life for herself in a larger more cultural and thriving subcultural town unhampered by narrow mindedness and few opportunities was the best decision that she made. It gave her confidence to take calculated risks ant to manage challenges and meet goals on her own terms. She knew if she didn't take the chance of moving away from the small farming town that she grew up in, she would be a cramped confused and bitter narrower person for it. She can identify people who she knew then, who never moved away from the small town and can recognise the limitations they inherited because of this.

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Luciana Flora    798
Luciana Flora

I remembered something here. I will now talk about how I usually act with respect to very religious people. Even though my parents were not. At school, I found a lot of people like that.

In college I related much more than in the previous school years. And ironically, the people who gave me the best were religious people.

I think that this happened because they better accepted some of my peculiarities. Like for example, I never have boyfriend. They were less strange, even knowing that the reason I never had a boyfriend was not because of religion.

They could accept that I would rather stay at home than go to a party more naturally.

I found it easy to relate to these people. When they talked about religion I just pretended to listen and it was okay. IoI

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Maureen    5,227
Maureen

I have a theory that I talked to Geraldine about that I'll share here. I think that the cultures with the deepest imprintings, or imprintablility, are set up to help younger people move through their 3rd IMs as a matter of course, fairly easily, but they do nothing to help, in fact they obstruct, people from moving through their 4th IMs. In a more "easy" culture with less imprinting you are kind of "left on your own" to work out the 3rd IM, which can be daunting, but you are freer to "become yourself" as you move through your 4th IM. I see them as being different, not harder or easier. Just some thoughts... Geraldine and I never closed this out as being accurate, or not.  :wind:

 

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Marvin Wilkins    39
Marvin Wilkins

I like that Maureen,

Although my childhood wasn't the easiest I wouldn't trade it for anything because I had certain freedoms growing up that others might not have had.

I feel the older soul age you are the easier it is to make your way through the life.

I definitely had a humourous perspective on my upbringing and thought everything was funny, even the unpleasant situations I would find myself in.

For that reason I didn't buy into the parental imprinting. 

I also recall in the MFM book Israel is late baby so that might have something to do with it as well.

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Luciana Flora    798
Luciana Flora
8 hours ago, Maureen said:

I have a theory that I talked to Geraldine about that I'll share here. I think that the cultures with the deepest imprintings, or imprintablility, are set up to help younger people move through their 3rd IMs as a matter of course, fairly easily, but they do nothing to help, in fact they obstruct, people from moving through their 4th IMs. In a more "easy" culture with less imprinting you are kind of "left on your own" to work out the 3rd IM, which can be daunting, but you are freer to "become yourself" as you move through your 4th IM. I see them as being different, not harder or easier. Just some thoughts... Geraldine and I never closed this out as being accurate, or not.  :wind:

 

Very interesting what you said here. I do not know if that was exactly what you wanted to say, but it reminded me a little of the dynamics between my father and me.

My father never imposed any belief for me. He did not even impose his lack of belief. He left everyone free to believe it or not at all. And that was precisely what he did not have in his child

I have always found that his greatest contribution to me in relation to beliefs and spirituality was not to create obstacles. The most he does is say that he does not believe in it and that he would not spend his money on these things. AndI alwalsys  say that we are different people and that what matters to me may not be important to him.

. I would say tthat I have more  are internal obstacles.

But, on the other hand, precisely because I have no contact with people focused on spirituality, I have created a very idealistic view of them. As if they were all to be super-understanding and to practice what they preach. IoI. And I was really surprised when I discovered that it was not so.

Edited by Luciana Flora
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PamelaLynn    6
PamelaLynn

Interesting idea - so I though I would add my background and struggles with imprinting.  I hope this adds to the conversation.

 

My father is from a mixed-race family from Barbados and my mother was a - I will say 'multi-generational' because her mother's family had been in North America since the 1600s while her father's family from only the 1800s - generation Canadian of Irish - German background.  She grew up in an area in Ontario were some of her ancestors had established the town - or funded the building of churches.  She grew up poor - but both of her parents encouraged her in many ways - including encouraging her to become a nurse.  However - her mother had Multiple Sclerosis and she was very angry about the difficulties she faced in life.  I can understand that anger as I have Multiple Sclerosis as well.  Anyway.

My father did not impose any belief's on us -  he did encourage us to think for ourself.  He taught us to be open to other ideas - but almost to the point that we had no guidelines.  

 

But - my childhood was not fun because of a lot of anger and depression.  My mother was very critical of herself - because of how her mother had treated her.  My mother had to take care of her siblings and even her cousins at times because her mother was not able to do so.  My mother was never openly critical of us - just herself.  And I think that my father suffers from depression. 

 

We were kinda allowed to drift and find our own way.  My father did have one belief that I struggled with - that was that he seemed to convey that men were smarter than women.  When I graduated from University with an Engineering degree - his way of 'congratulating me' was to say: I only ever expected you to get pregnant, drop out of school and marry the dummy down the street'.  I knew that he was joking - as I had been a very good student - athlete - played in the school band - never gave any indication that I would do all those things he thought that I would....but it did hurt.

 

So - for me - my biggest struggle with 'imprinting' was not against a 'rigid culture of expectation' - but rather  I realized that I had been doing things to try to get my parents approval or love.  I finally realized that they were both fighting their own internal demons so much that they were not really in a position to give my brother and me all that much attention.  I had to work on forgiving my parents.  Since then I would say that all of my struggles are internal - I had been trying to find my own internal moral code and beliefs - I had to find something other than anger and depression to get though life - I had to learn internal joy and gratitude. 

 

So I wonder if it is 'easier' to fight against imprinting when the culture you grow up in is rather rigid - baby soul stuff - then dealing with parents that are suffering under some issues - perhaps growing up with parents that are addicts or mentally ill - or like mine - angry and depressed.

 

Just my thoughts

 

 

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Connor    886
Connor

My church was rather liberal, as far as churches go. There were no fire-and-brimstone sermons, everyone was nice...though thinking back on it today, I don't recall ever meeting any who identified somewhere on the rainbow spectrum, and the vast majority of the congregation was white. I hadn't been exposed yet to the wide spectrums of sexuality and gender, not even in my school where being anything other than a binary heterosexual, where openly displaying your intelligence, where being yourself opened one to ridicule and bullying. Better to stay quiet and be a wallflower, I reasoned at a very early age. Now I attract crowds of people when I give tours.

The church imprinting was insidious. The prayers were very self-deprecative. Christians are taught to be sorry for being piles of shit who are stinking up God's creation. Every week the prayers were asking God for forgiveness, sorry for sinning God, I'm such a sinner, sin sin sin. It was rather depressing, and as I grew older I started choosing to remain silent when the rest of the congregation would pray. Screw it, I'm not debasing myself like that. It took years before I was able to fully enjoy masturbation without feeling guilty for wasting God's stupid semen. And don't even get me started on Hell. Spending eternity on fire based on choices made within a lifetime which, held up against eternity, is little more than a blink of the eye? Life became less about striving to be a kind soul for its own sake (because, turns out, that's who we are) and more about desperately trying to accrue enough kind moments so that I would escape an eternity of being on fire.

Everything belongs to God, everything must be devoted to God. Even your thoughts. Your triumphs are God's triumphs. Your failures are your failures, so keep working on them and soon those failures will be more of God's triumphs.

Faith is not to be questioned, it is to be believed. I'm amazed I emerged from the damn place with any critical thinking skills left intact.

I have no intention of having kids, but if I do they're not going to church unless they ask.

The imprinting was tough, but not impossible. I probably take it for granted that I have a ridiculously experienced Essence. The Essences of those who shared my church, by and large, are not as experienced.

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PamelaLynn    6
PamelaLynn

I have thought further on this subject.

 

Couldn't we say that imprinting happens on many levels?  When you think of values, beliefs and behaviours,  don't we 'tune' each of them to - our parents - our other family members - our friends/social groups - our workplace - our schools/churches and other institutions - our local community (rural versus urban) - our ethnic identities - our national identity?

 

We might learn poor communication/conflict resolution skills from our parents, but have the opportunity to learn more effective/better skills from another individual/group?

 

Does the TV influence us? The internet?

 

In today's 1st world countries - do we not have many choices - and many opportunities to reject/accept certain 'imprints'.... 

 

So - it might be more difficult in any situation where you can not easily see the other choices that people make.  So - in a 'closed' community - I would say that it is harder to 'evolve' because you just do not see other role models with other choices.....

 

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MichaelE    110
MichaelE

I have to agree with Bobby. I also grew up in an Evangelical Christian household. It is vital to love and trust yourself and what you think before what they think when interacting with that imprinting or any imprinting.

 

@Maureen I can validate at least a part of that theory. I have found because of my imprinting, looking back, the 3rd IM was easier for me, but the 4th IM was extremely difficult, for exactly the reasons you describe. It makes sense that the opposite would be true for those with less comprehensive imprinting.

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