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[Excerpt from Energy Report: July & August 2011] The Attitude is our way of describing one’s basic philosophy, or one’s basic filter for interpreting the world, and how one tends to bring that philosophy into the world. Pragmatism is basically the philosophy of theorizing, experimenting with those theories, and then choosing the most practical. Pragmatism is the building up of theories from the processing of one’s own experiences, and then applying those theories to substantiate them, which gives rise to new experiences, which then give rise to new theories, and so on. However, Pragmatism is not just about the collection of one’s own experiences, but the consideration and inclusion of other people’s experiences and theories along the way. It is through the experimentation and application of all theories that Pragmatism is healthy as an Attitude, or is in the Positive Pole of Practical/Efficient. Pragmatism is not about convenience or lazy interpretations, when in the Positive Pole, but a consideration of a multitude of perceptions that can work, could work, or has worked, and then choosing from those the most Practical, through experimentation. When Pragmatism falls into the Negative Pole, there is no Practice (practical), no Efficiency, and certainly very little consideration of alternative theories to one’s own. There is only Prejudice, Presumption, or Dogmatism. These words not only describe the lack of validation of the theories, but describes the blocking of challenges to one’s theories, including the very nature of varying contexts. When Pragmatism falls into Dogma, one’s perspective is locked in a way that leaves little room for the consideration of even one’s own new experiences, or alternative perspectives, that could update or clarify the original theories so that they are capable of being validated, useful, Practical. A simplistic example might be one who “knows” that he can get on the other side of a wall, because he knows that others have done so, so he rams himself into the wall. This is an experience that tells this person that ramming into the wall is probably not the most efficient or practical means for applying his theory that one can get to the other side. The Pragmatist in the Positive Pole would then try to climb it, or crawl through a window, or use the door, or just go around it, or all of the above, comparing each experience to determine the most practical solution, but also including feedback and experiences from those around him so that he can experiment with those, too. The Pragmatist in the Positive Pole knows that the shortest distance between two points is not always a straight line, so to speak. The Pragmatist in the Negative Pole may simply continue to ram himself against the wall, eventually busting through, and then insists that this is the only way, or the best way, or the way that works, because it worked for him. Eventually. ... Also, keep in mind that all Assimilative Overleaves “slide” to the other Overleaves as a means for manifestation. All Assimilative Overleaves are rather transparent, if you will, and though defined in their own right, tend to require other means through which to apply that definition. So the Pragmatist, then, would “slide” to the Attitude that is most Practical for the occasion, or the most useful for digging in to Dogmatism. Though an Assimilative Overleaf can use any other Overleaf in that category, a person will tend to choose one or two as habitual places to slide.
Michael Speaks -- Open Floor Chat July 10, 2011 [Diane_H] What is the cause of autism/asperger's syndrome (a milder form of autism) from your perspective? [MEntity] From what we can see, Diane, as these are syndromes, there are multiple causes that come together to generate the symptoms that are called "autism" or "asperger's syndrome." As this tends to be a developmental syndrome, we think it is partially explained, in many instances, by the Goal of Re-evaluation for the Personality. It is simply one of the many ways that an Essence can create a Personality with a re-evaluatory aim for the lifetime. There are lifetimes that are physical re-evaluations, emotional re-evaluations, and intellectual re-evaluations. There are a multitude of ways for helping to bring that Goal into focus for a lifetime, and these conditions are ways to do that. [Diane_H] Are they generally planned before birth? - the syndrome [MEntity] With physical "causes" that may be difficult to pinpoint, but range from genetics, to deficiencies in diet from the mother, to post-trauma, to vaccination issues (which are legitimate concerns, regardless of claims for safety), to simply being slow development, to being complete misdiagnoses. The Goal of Re-evaluation appears to make up approximately 40% of the legitimate cases, with physical "causes" ranging across the suggestions above; with 30% being slow development phases, and 30% being complete misdiagnoses due to the methods of expression that a Personality may implement that are simply not satisfying to those around him or her. Those relative to the Goal of Re-evaluation would have been planned, but the others are developmental, and not always planned. We do not have the terminology through this channel to convey a specific response, but we think that the legitimate cases, regardless of original causes, would be dealing with synaptic or neural issues that can be treated. [Oscar] I would like to know if Lloyd Pye's theories have any ground. As such, are some hominid races (pre-Homo Sapiens) still alive on Earth today, and what were the races of the parents of the so-called Starchild, of which he has the skull in his possession? [MEntity] This Scholar known as "Lloyd" appears to have some footing in his theories, and though there are flaws and embellishments that are unintentional, we think it is worth exploring for the sake of concept. We do not see any of the "pre-homo sapiens" at this time. We also think the label of "star child" is a misnomer. [Brian_W] Hi Michael. The term "subtle energy" has been used quite frequently lately and many of us are curious, from a physical standpoint, what frequency and energy range does it fall under on the electromagnetic spectrum for us to detect and harness it? Does it propagate on, parallel to, or perpendicular to the existing electromagnetic spectrum? [MEntity] We may fall short again in terminology through this channel, but we can say that subtle energies fall just beyond the range of what you would call Electric and Magnetic Fields and frequencies. At this point, we know of no reliable means for detecting these without a living system involved, such as the musculature responses of a human body, which convert these into something observable, and without considering the concept of a empty space, or a vacuum in the calculations. We do think it is valid to consider subtle energies as being a kind of "vertical" energy vs the "horizontal" energy of observable energy. All subtle energy would require conversion, if harnessing or directing it were to be an aim. We are doing our best to convey the details through this channel, and we would suggest continuing to ask these questions in different ways at different times to help in generating a clearer picture. [Maureen] I have 3 planets (Sun, Venus, Mercury) in my 12th house. It is often described as being the house of isolation, hospitals, i.e., retreats of any kind, BUT I find this incongruent with the overall description of what it means to be “above the horizon”, usually pointing to “exposure” of sorts, for any planet placement. What is Michael’s take on this? What is the “true” meaning of the 12th house in Astrology? [MEntity] We would not qualify our response as clarifying the "true" meaning of the 12th House of a Zodiac, but we can say that it is A truth. As Astrology is a system of symbols, the flexibility of meaning and "truth" can accommodate a great many perspectives, maturities, and contexts. Our perspective of the 12th House, in terms of the Natal Zodiac, tends to be that this is where issues of collective inheritance comes in, with the planets emphasizing how these would be brought through the Personality. By "collective inheritance" we mean that which is a collection of imbalances, ideals, woundings, and/or patterns that are relative to a group of past Personalities of your Essence (past lives) or relative to those who your Essence intends to include as part of the current life. For those who lean toward an emphasis of Healing within the lifetime, either of the self or others, there can be a tendency for planets to populate this House. It could be called "The House of Healing," for that matter. When the Sun is present, we would think this is relative to SELF; with Venus present, it would indicate realms of Intimacy; and with Mercury present, it might indicate the realms of Communication. Each of those areas may come with built-in challenges that prompt a development of techniques and methods for Healing. This is a highly simplistic response, but a good start for consideration. [AnnH] I've been observing a great deal of divisiveness on many different levels. In the US overall, on my job (administration vs. faculty/staff), among friends, and in the MT community. Is this the tidy up from the June platform, or the movement into Pragmatist in July (sliding to Skeptic/Cynic), or just what I'm focused on? [MEntity] The emphasis of collective energy has shifted toward the Attitude of the year, which we see as Pragmatist. The first phases of emphasis tend to bring up the Negative Pole, and in this case, issues relative to perspectives rooted in Dogma are going to surface. The means through which to secure Dogma appear to be through the use of Cynicism and Skepticism, as Pragmatist perspectives slide into those. This means that some securing of Dogma will come in the form of Denigration and Suspicion. This is being played out currently in the United States over the "debt ceiling" and the divisive dogmatic maneuvers of those involved with that. In short: it is "not you." It is the world, in general, and everyone who is participating in the world in any way is going to find exposure to their own, or others', Dogma. The moment you notice another person or group as having a problem with their perspective because of their strict adherence to one acceptable pattern, we would suggest, first, exploring whether this is noticed for the sake of bringing to light your own Dogmas. That is not always the case, of course, but it is a healthy pause to make in the process of interpretation. We will have more to say about this, and suggestions for solutions, when Troy posts our Energy Report. [Geraldine] Due to some fairly fundamental differences between some parallels on earth, are there some Energy Rings that only incarnate into those parallels after they've become very different? Do all Essences in the same Energy Ring incarnate into all of the same parallels for a shared experience? [MEntity] Because all of one Design, or in fact, all within an entire Universe, begin "together," there is ultimately that "trunk" that will bind all of us. No matter how many branches will come from that trunk, ALL of us will share at least that primary binding/winding of realities that are similar enough or the same. However, there are no rules to the variations of branching, and one Entity, one Cadre, one Energy Ring, and any combination, can branch off into its own experimentations, with no other fragments involved at all, or at least not involved in any meaningful way. By "not involved in any meaningful way" we mean that your Essences are vast in their capacity for being present in any parallel at any time, so if, say, an Entity wants to explore one extremely experimental version of a timeline, it can appear to be populated by as many as necessary, but these would, in "reality," be props. There are multiple, solid versions of timelines for your cycles of incarnation by the time your Essence cycles off. Parallels exist up to and through the Causal. We have parallel versions of ourselves, as well. However, by this Plane, these versions become accounted for, and become a part of the integration process before moving to the higher planes. If it were not for these parallel versions, Entities would not have the opportunity for exploring the 6th and 7th Soul Ages. For instance, there is a parallel version of our relationship with you where we are incarnated as Transcendental, and you are a part of our audience there. In short: yes, there are many variations for how an Entity, Cadre, Energy Ring etc. cycle off, and part of the progress through the Astral and Causal Planes is the recollection of those variations. [Bobby] You've mentioned that the Chernobyl incident was one where alien intervention occurred. Did the recent Fukushima incident also precipitate such an intervention? If so, what sort of interaction is taking place? [MEntity] The Chernobyl event was one that included prevention, with some amount of hope that this would help move nuclear development down in priority, as it is quite unstable as a resource on a planet with shifting crusts. The impending destruction at Fukushima, however, is not being prevented, and is, as far we can see, even being encouraged, as this may end up being one of the "hard lessons" that caretakers may consider necessary to allow, much like eventually allowing the child to burn his hand so that the danger is fully comprehended. There are no interventions at this time, that we can see, at least. [jesuislulu] After researching about the more personal nature of Triads from my last POF session I came across a question regarding working groups....I cribbed this question from the Library as it resonated with information from previous sessions regarding my times in the Mystery Schools..... SO. Regarding your description of working groups as “a configuration of fragments working on esoteric themes begun in Alexandrine schools….,” this struck a cord with me. Could you elaborate a bit more and I’m not asking for details, but can you confirm whether I am part of such a group and if so, what its esoteric theme is? [MEntity] Yes, your Essence is part of such a Working Group: The Owls, who focus on a form of constant and persistent questioning until "satisfying" answers are collected. Owls may be associated with the sound of "hoo," but this Working Group asks "why." [MariLynn] there has been a recent trial decision in the Casey Anthony case, and the drama of it seemed to captivate the entire US, perhaps beyond, and I was wondering if this woman did have something to do with her daughter's death, as in guilt but, what can we take away from this drama, ie. what can be the "bigger lesson" for people? [MEntity] We cannot answer definitively whether this Artisan killed her Sage child, though we do see some record of awareness of from the Artisan that indicates her presence at the time. We cannot answer definitively because this is a Karmic issue that does not allow for access until the ribbons are burned, or at least those Essences involved are done locking down those records. When Karma is involved, particularly when it is still active, either in formation or balancing, the records are "locked down," so to speak, because to relay any details about a Karmic situation via any method other than one's own Essence, can incur Karma. Giving an intentional or an unintentional "heads up" about Karmic Ribbons can alter the entire dynamic of a lifetime for many involved. And while we would not be in danger of this through answering your question for you, we still cannot answer that question until those records are clear. There is no "big lesson" in the drama that has unfolded for the public, other than one that each chooses to interpret from the scenarios as one plays out "what if" or "if I were..." games with speculation, but we can say that this case symbolizes the growing shift of maturity away from glamor and fame for sake of glamor and fame, and the growing disgust with such seemingly blatant displays. [tkmppi] Do others of the 9 Pillars have 7 alternatives as True Home does (wilderness, ocean, etc., with the usual M math I presume)? If so, what are they? [MEntity] It is valid that each of the True Work, Play, Study, Love, Core, and Gift can be delineated as having 7 categories for each, but these would not be as personalized as our choosing more specific terms from within those categories. For instance, True Work *could* be described as being the same as your Goal, but this would lend no insight into that specific Life Task, or methods for implementing that Life Task, even as it may fall under the broader umbrella of Growth, Acceptance, etc. Or True Play might be understood as relative to your Attitude, and your means of forming Expression; or True Study as relative to your Mode, and your means of igniting Inspiration. True Love tends to be relative to the Level within Soul Age. True Core tends to be relative to Soul Age. And True Gift tends to be relative to Chief Features (or the means through which one transcends or transforms the Chief Features). We can delineate these in more detail at another time, but this is a start. [Jana_K] I have been watching a programme called Catastrophe on Discovery Science. It seems like the fact that life is possible on earth is only thanks to seemingly endless amount of "accidents" that have happened. Collisions of a specific type, in a specific order, with specific consequences, eruptions, freezes and so on. It seems like an awful lot of coincidence, because all of these events in the order they have happened have lead to making conditions for life possible. In addition to that, our planet is in a number of "Goldilock zones". Again - more and more unlikely coincidences. It seems orchestrated. Is it? By whom exactly? How? [MEntity] The means for which "life" is possible seems far more profound when the "perfect scenarios" are retrofitted to what is living at the time, but it is often the other way around that "life" begins. Or put another way, the definitions of "life" are often limited by the lifeforms defining it, and what is "perfect" for that lifeform is not perfect for another. Life exists in many forms in many ways, and the "Goldilocks Zone" for humans is very different from those who are silicon-based, for instance. What tends to happen in the creation of a Universe, from what we gather, is that the initial process is rather random in its formation, but eventually patterns emerge, much like a painter might splatter paint across a canvas and eventually find images in that pattern. The dominant patterns that begin to form throughout the universe then become the media through which "life" and Sentience will choose to evolve. In other Universes, some patterns may be more prominent than the carbon- and silicon- dominant universe we exist within. There are three dominant bases in this universe, but we do not have the proper word for conveying the third, in addition to carbon and silicon. There are more than three, overall, but those are the dominant bases. In other words, BECAUSE those bases developed as the most prominent pattern, Sentience used it, rather than the bases being determined, and then the universe having to shape itself around those parameters. [Paulyboy] How have other traveling species managed interstellar travel? Propulsion seems to have many difficulties around it (time dilation, energy requirements towards the speed of light, sheer distance, etc.), so perhaps bending space/time and "hopping" may be more the route to look into (I'm not really sure). What directions, openings, ideas, leads, principles, etc. would be a good aim for further opening of exploration and questioning of this topic in the future, given the vocabulary of the channel? I'd aim for the schematics and construction manual for a warp drive or TARDIS (/chuckle), but I doubt this would be quite the setting for that. Thanks! [MEntity] The concepts of folding space are valid, though not quite understood when put into current paradigms dependent upon propulsions. The "folding" of space that is used by many species includes the disassembling of matter from one point in space to the reassembling of matter in another. When the emphasis of exploration focuses on this method, the cascading of possibilities and potential might then lead to farther off-planet explorations. [Paulyboy] Sort of a teleportation type technology? [MEntity] It is a variation on that concept, yes, but rather than either a "beaming" or a "folding" acting as separate concepts, they come together. In most instances that we can see, the "beaming" comes first in development, and then the "folding." We will conclude here for today. Good day to each of you.
[Reproduction of Michael Speaks: You and Your Attitude] [M_Entity] Hello to all of you. We are here. We understand the topic to be that of Attitudes as they are defined within our teaching. Of course, there are 7 Attitudes, as there are 7 of every other Overleaf in our system. The 7 Attitudes are the Neutral or Assimilative PRAGMATIST, the Inspirational Stoic and Spiritualist, the Expressional Skeptic and Idealist, and the Actional Cynic and Realist. The Attitudes are specifically your personal means to interpret reality. The Attitudes could easily be said to be The 7 Basic Philosophies, as much of what is our more complete system now has been found isolated in various teachings throughout the ages. Each Attitude can easily find a correlation of a philosophy, which can shed a great deal of light on your personal Attitude. The Attitude could be said to be the “pivot” or “hinge” within our Personality System around which all other facets of your Personality move. Because the Attitude is intrinsically linked to your Intellect, the Attitude can “make or break” your sense of peace, trust, wholeness, etc. Whether you are Intellectually Centered or not, you still have an Intellect, and that Intellect works hard to interpret and make sense of reality. So, too, does your Attitude. It will go a long way toward freeing you from the traps of the Attitude and Intellect if you understand that it is not necessarily “the point” to “make sense” of reality, because literally, it is the opposite: your senses MAKE reality. Though we say your Attitude “interprets” reality, it may be more effective to understand that your Attitude “filters” reality. Both are valid descriptions. Though an Attitude is far from an imposition, it CAN be a limitation if you find you are not able to function within your ;particular Attitude's full spectrum of use. It can easily be said that, from the absolute worst struggles, to the most trivial of frustrations, these experiences are directly a reflection of how you are using your Attitude. When your Attitude is in its Negative Pole, regardless of what that may be, you have determined that you have completed your need for input for your basic philosophical stance. When the Negative Pole of the Attitude is in control, reality loses its creativity and flexibility, and instead becomes a tangled mess that must be understood immediately, even if the means to do so have not even come to pass. We can speak generally of Attitudes because the basic experience is quite consistent; it is the HOW of it all that is different among them. For instance, an Idealist in the Negative Pole and a Cynic in the Negative Pole will both share the struggle of trying to understand something within a limitation of input, but the Idealist will “naively” bumble his way through, while the Cynic will use “denigration” to destroy anything outside his comprehension. In the case of the Cynic, we do not mean an attempt to literally destroy, but that the Cynic will actively fight to remove any contradictions from his determined perception. In the case of each Axis of Attitude, you will find when they are in the Negative Pole, the reaction of the Attitude is to eliminate the Positive Pole experiences. When the Stoic is “resigned,” he will use inspiration to lead others into resignation, to validate his own perceptions. The Spiritualist will use inspiration to impose his beliefs on others as strongly as possible, to remove the need for verifying his perceptions. The Skeptic will simply express strong suspicions, riling others into an insecure space of perception, to remove the need for investigation. The Idealist will naively take on lofty goals and intentions, either with or without awareness, setting himself up for failure, so as to remove the experience of coalescence, which is the bringing together of parts to make a whole. The Cynic will actively remove all that contradicts his own determined perception. The Realist will insist that her perceptions are based in fact, even against the strongest of feedback that she is inaccurate, so as to remove her from having to be Objective. In addition, the Pragmatist will continue doing things, thinking about things, expressing things, exactly as they have worked for her to her satisfaction, regardless of the fact that input is dictating that there are more practical ways for the same things. The reason the Negative Pole is so strongly interested in eliminating the Positive Pole experiences is because the Attitude is the “brother or sister” to the Chief Features. We speak of these traits with anthropomorphic descriptions, only for the sake of relating, but we do not wish for you to mistake this means of description as if these parts of you are a separate consciousness. We do not say that they are, nor do we imply that they are. Because of our limitation of time, we will quickly point out what we believe may be the most important concern for your understanding of the Attitudes. Since the Attitude can be your prison or your means to complete freedom, we believe that when you are struggling in any area of your life, the first place to look would be to your Attitude. In understanding your Attitude, you would clearly be able to see that you may be in the Negative Pole, but the fastest and most effective means to move yourself out of it, is simply to choose a different angle of perception. Since the Attitude, while in the Negative Pole, so intently seeks to remove the experience of the Positive Pole of your Attitude, the “trick” is to use the Positive Pole of the Attitude that shares your Axis. If the effort is made, within minutes your life can change; or at least your attitude toward it, which can then lead to changing your life. When the Spiritualist is lost in her Beliefs and continues to find she is blocked from real, fulfilling Verification of her perceptions, it can free her to “slide” to the Positive Pole of Stoicism, which would be Tranquility. When Belief is in control, there is usually a strong need to get others to share in the belief, even if you, yourself have not Verified its place in your life. When the Spiritualist slides to Tranquility, she relaxes and surrenders gently to her perceptions. This then allows her to Verify things for herself, instead of finding others to do it for her. On the other hand, the Stoic may have given up on his life, resigning, which is a passive stance to the life. If he were to slide to Verification, he would be able to find that much of what he has resigned himself to is not even valid anymore as an imposition. We may not be able to go through all of the Attitudes with examples, but we will note that the Pragmatist has the ability to slide to ANY of the other Attitudes as a means to free himself from Dogma. We will now take any questions you may have, so we can respond to you, rather than use your time teaching what may already be available in print. QUESTIONS [MDFSage_Val] Can you describe a “spectrum of use” for an Idealist, or is this more an individual fragment thing/issue? [M_Entity] An Idealist lives within the spectrum of being “cursed” and “blessed” with the constant want for improvement. The Idealist has such a wider vision of most things that he can see patterns where others cannot. Within those patterns, he can also see how they can be improved, manipulated, or altered for the better. The struggle then comes from the Idealist being able to see the big picture, but not putting the effort into defining the STEPS it will take to get there. Therein lies the spectrum from Naivety to Coalescence. An Idealist can see that he has potential to run a marathon, but instead of taking the steps to prepare, he simply, naively runs in the marathon, until he collapses from the pain he could have avoided. [Suzanne] Michael, How would be best for an idealist & a spiritualist to relate to each other, one expresses while the other inspires? [M_Entity] The Spiritualist will always interpret relationships in terms of how inspiring they are, while the Idealist will interpret the relationships in terms of how much improvement is coming from them. [Suzanne] Rather interesting, as it can compliment. [M_Entity] If the Spiritualist feels her relationships are not inspiring, or that she is not inspiring, she will lose interest. The Idealist must feel as if the relationships are somehow improving each other, or he will feel they are not worth it. [Suzanne] Thank you, I understand better now [M_Entity] We are using pronouns randomly, for the sake of grammar. We are not intending anything to be specifically assigned to a gender. [Suzanne] Understood that too, thanks. [M_Entity] The Spiritualist could be said to be “cursed” and “blessed” with the philosophy that everything has potential. Within that spectrum, you will find the experiences ranging from blind faith or belief to valid verification of those potentials. We will point out one last point for your consideration before concluding tonight. When you are in the Negative Pole of your Attitude, you may find you are behaving more and more like the Attitude sharing your Axis, or attracting, or attracted to, those who share your Axis. This is your inherent move toward balance in perception and even if this is done without awareness, it manages, at least, to continue to give the option of choosing how you interpret your reality. So, an Idealist may tend to be very critical and skeptical as a means to balance his Idealism; the Spiritualist may find she is becoming less and less emotional and more passive as she seeks balance for her Beliefs. We shared as much as we could within your time allotted. We have much more to say about this topic, of course. We will conclude here. Good Night to all of you.
[Excerpt from Ask Michael - June 7, 2015] [DianeHB] Hi Michael, could you talk about how the Pragmatist appears/acts in social situations? [MEntity] The Pragmatist in the Positive Pole can show up as attentive, quiet, and observing of how others are maneuvering, behaving, functioning, and producing, offering insight, feedback, and direction only as necessary or as beneficial to the dynamic. The Pragmatist in the Negative Pole is your micro-manager, your "nit-picking" and badgering presence, either in obvious ways or in passive-aggressive ways that are not productive, but tend to actually undermine efficiency. By "efficiency" here we mean that an intended effect is lost in favor of the feeding dogma. Because Pragmatists can be using any other Attitude, this benefit or undermining can come in the guise of any other Attitude. Many Negative Pole Pragmatists are known to say something along the lines of "I'm just being truthful." This is not limited to Pragmatists, because all other Attitudes can also access the Pragmatist. An Idealist can express the same if he's using Dogma, for example. However, most other Attitudes do tend to stay on their own Axis and not involve Pragmatism. As usual, the above is highly simplistic and not indicative of the complexities of a human being, but it can be helpful in understanding the dynamic of a trait. [Excerpt from OMW - Sep 16, 2012 - The Circuitry of Overleaves] [Diane_HB] I often notice myself using Observation in social situations, not necessarily Pragmatism. [MEntity] Diane, keep in mind that Observation Mode is not literal observation. You may find yourself observing others, but this is Pragmatic for you. Keep in mind that Pragmatism is a philosophy, a filter on reality. In a social situation, that will either manifest as being Practical, in your actual expression of self, in your exchanges, and in your evaluation of the worth of those exchanges, or as Dogma, stuck in routines that you have learned as a way to filter people out. Dogma may show up as an inflexibility in what you find worth talking about, if you talk at all. Many with Pragmatism will be those who walk into a social situation, and then quietly, eventually, exit and wonder why the attempt was even made.