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I thought I would start a new topic as per Troy's advice on another thread. If we wish to continue, lets do it here. Bit about me - I am neither pro-vax or anti-vax and dislike these terms. I think believing or not believing in vaccines is ignorant, because such topic should not be treated according to belief. I am for objective and scientific approach based on facts, and after being involved in this topic for a long time, I can see vast majority - no matter what is their general stance on it, to be guilty of ignoring facts, presuming things etc.


Anyways, here we can discuss it without polluting other topics.


One argument often discussed is a danger of a new epidemic. So I'll start with that one. When I ask what epidemics are people scared of, I tend to get very vague responses, and usually it's along the lines "the ones we vaccinate against". So my questions to kick off the topic are:

  • how much do you know about these diseases, and if not much, how informed a debate can you lead on the topic? Most of them are contagious, but not all. You cannot have tetanus caught from another person for instance.
  • why are you not scared of those that we do not vaccinate against, that are contagious, and were in the past epidemics and are not eradicated? Such as, but not limited to, TBC (no longer vaccinated against), scarlet fever (never vaccinated against, and being a bit of a problem not so long ago)
  • With diseases that are not mass vaccinated against, such as the flu, the situation is that we DO get epidemics every year and people are free to choose how to handle this. In most places that is, they are not prosecuted for not getting a shot. I have no issue with vaccines existing and people getting them - based on choice. It might even be that some of them ARE better given en mass - but any debate we have on this should be a deeply informed one, not "because they say so". And I oppose prosecution for not giving selected vaccines based on determining that is the best course of action (based on research).


I also oppose to ANY medications (and vaccines are medications) to be subject to any marketing, and any but most deeply informed and objective advice and recommendation being attached to them. This is not currently the case and therefore the onus is on the public to apply critical thinking or suffer consequences.


I also oppose to the state making something mandatory and then refusing to take responsibility for doing so when accidents happen. USA has a functioning compensation system. This is far from the case in other countries I am familiar with and in CR you simply become a victim of the "greater good". One could argue if disability or death can be compensated by money, but not taking any responsibility is worse. At least money can be used towards caring for a disabled person. Of course in USA this is paid for from taxes, so you are all paying for it, but still, at least it's there.


I'll come back to the story of smallpox later, got to go to work now.

Edited by Jana
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11 hours ago, Jana said:

USA has a functioning compensation system. This is far from the case in other countries I am familiar with and in CR you simply become a victim of the "greater good". One could argue if disability or death can be compensated by money, but not taking any responsibility is worse. At least money can be used towards caring for a disabled person. Of course in USA this is paid for from taxes, so you are all paying for it, but still, at least it's there.


Actually, the US's system is notoriously difficult to get anything out of. There are statutes of limitations, and it's very, very hard to prove that symptoms are the result of a vaccine injury. So many people are rejected for compensation. Still, the program has paid out something like $3 billion so far. If only a fraction of the people who submit a claim actually get compensated, you can see that the vaccine injury problem is huge.


Canada doesn't have a similar system. If you get injured by a vaccine, you're on your own. (But at least we have access to health care.) Our recommended schedule is similar to the US's, but vaccines can't be forced on anyone due to our constitution.


In North America and Australia, there's so much propaganda about how well vaccines work and how they're saving us all from certain death. Most people don't know that their children are getting way more vaccines than children in other countries, that those other countries are not awash in disease and death, and that a majority of the population isn't "fully vaccinated" anyway (because most adults are not caught up on all the boosters they're supposed to have these days). We're not all dropping like flies... but the way the media goes on about it, you'd think we were all just a sneeze away from death. There is no "herd immunity" from vaccines, mainly because the concept only applies to natural infection within a population, but also because, like I said, we're nowhere near close to the threshold that we're supposedly supposed to have. Play around with the Herd Immunity Calculator for a few minutes, and it becomes obvious that vaccines can't possibly be what's keeping disease at bay. If they were that vital, then we'd be in major trouble.

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There is a lot of information there. Unfortunately, I also found a number of mistakes. This sort of article needs to be impeccably edited, or it will be dismissed outright by pro-vaxxers. The section on the MMR vaccine is atrocious; it can't seem to remember if it's talking about the MMR or the DPT. And the section on Zika mentions Monsanto spraying pesticide in the water supply... which is technically wrong and will be seized upon by those wanting discredit the whole article. Using Natural News as a source probably isn't going to go over very well, either, unless the reader is a Trump-supporting conspiracy theorist. ?


Have you read Suzanne Humphries's book? I've only read excerpts, but I'd like to read the whole thing one day.

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I've had the same thing suggested to me before, but the problem is that I don't have kids. Therefore, I can't possibly know anything about vaccines. ?


That article brings up a really good point about the "science" of vaccines being akin to "tobacco science". I sometimes wonder if I'll live long enough to see the tide turn; after all, we've been messing with our immune systems for hundreds of years now, and the practice is still going strong with a lot of public support. What's it going to take to wake people up? How bad do things have to get? Can society really stick its fingers in its ears for the next century while a large swath of the population gets taken down by all manner of chronic diseases? (Of course, nobody knows what's causing them, but they know it's not vaccines. Just... because.)


I see a fundamental lack of empathy with this issue. For parents whose kids are "fine", they can't (or won't) consider that things might be different for others. It's like claiming that because your kid can eat a peanut butter sandwich, there's no such thing as a fatal peanut allergy, and how dare you suggest that such a thing exists? How is that logical? How is that compassionate?


Ugh. I'm too passionate about this. If I actually had kids to worry about, I'd probably disintegrate from the stress of it all.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 3 years later...

I am old enough that most vaccines were not available when I was a child. We got tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis. Fortunately polio became available soon after, so I avoided that nasty number, but my mother and my "cookie mom" - the lady down the street in whose house we all hung out - had it; mild cases fortunately, my mom came out of it with just a weak arm while my cookie mom had to wear a brace on one leg for the rest of her life. I caught the mumps, German measles (rubella), and the "hard" measles. And "hard" it was. I was no malnourished child, I was the daughter of a physician living in an upper-middle-class suburb, but that was the sickest I have ever been in my life. The days before the spots appeared were sheer misery. I ran a fever so high I hallucinated. I was bedridden for nearly three weeks. Because the illness had toasted my immune system, I got a strep infection on top of it - which in those days meant a one-dose shot of penicillin in the bum, very painful - and also a extremely painful ear infection that caused one eardrum to rupture. I was 10. It was another month before I was back to my usual self. Mumps was not the risk for girls that it is for boys, but also quite painful - I couldn't eat for a couple of days. In those days chickenpox was considered a minor illness for kids and our moms deliberately exposed us to it. I have a couple of scars on my face from scratching the itchy poxes despite all my mom's vigilance and use of calamine lotion. A few years ago I did develop shingles, fortunately a very mild case on my back. My aunt got them on her face and not only was it exceedingly painful, one eye was threatened - scary time. 

So I don't have a lot of time for anti-vaxxers.

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