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20170916 MMW: Understanding YOUR Overleaves


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Maureen
1 minute ago, PPLD said:

 

This is fab Maureen! Will go to the sessions you're linking to!

 

But just so I get where I am starting (that's the core of my confusion...):

 

Is 'abrasive' used here in the meaning of the result = abraded to the level of being polished, smooth

or

In the meaning of the process = coarse to the level of creating friction

 

Do you get what I mean? I'm quite sure a part of it is the second- language speaker. I just can't get a 'feel' for the phrase.

 

h.e.l.p. ?

 

 

 

@PPLD, the second one. Abrasive or abrading as "In the meaning of the process = coarse to the level of creating friction".  ?

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So, as far as 'abrasive overleaves' are concerned, these are the things I found in the Michael books @PPLD:

 

From 'Messages from Michael (25th anniversary edition),

page 127: "(...) is a fifth level old priest in the observation mode with a goal of retardation [F.: now called re-evaluation?], a realist in the moving part of emotional center, with a chief feature of self-deprecation. This fragment is a very wise woman who has worked often as a counselor. The conflict inherent in her overleaves has often driven her to seek the assistance of psychologists and psychiatrists, though the problems are not accessible by such maneuvers." (...)

page 118: "(...) is a third-level young king in the aggression mode with a goal of retardation, a stoic in the emotional part of intellectual center, with a chief feature of martyrdom. The fragment with the very difficult overleaves was one of the leaders of the sepoy mutiny in India. (...)

page 95: "A young sage with a goal of rejection in the passion mode would be an incredibly abrasive personality. The sage soul longs for attention and an audience to which it can play, but the goal says that rejection must occur. (...) And because the young sage is in the passion mode, whatever is done is done passionately."

 

From "More Messages from Michael (25th anniversary edition), page 163/164: "Where the "mathematics" are compatible, the contact may be established more easily. Just as the polarities emphasize reciprocity, so the mathematical balances reveal the presentation of the Fragments, by which we mean that the true personality establishes reciprocities within itself. Where this does not occur, we speak of overleaves that abrade inwardly, just as we have often pointed out the problems of overleaves that abrade between individual Fragments. These inward abrasions are occasionally perceived as neurotic aspects of a personality, and there are certainly times that we would agree with the assessment. But when such overleaves are chosen, they are intended to make certain experiences and lessons possible."

 

Edited by Felicitas Brenner
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8 minutes ago, Maureen said:

 

 

@PPLD, the second one. Abrasive or abrading as "In the meaning of the process = coarse to the level of creating friction".  1f631.png

Yes, that is what is meant! 

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10 minutes ago, PPLD said:

THANK YOU! @Maureen and @Felicitas Brenner!!!!

I am rather slow sometimes, but now I get it 1f605.png

 

Felicitas, the excerpts are excellent! Thank you so much for taking your time with it.

And yep - getting the books and reading them...

 

You rock ladies! 1f339.png 1f339.png 1f339.png

You're so funny @PPLD..you slow?? ? Depends on the perspective of course, but I find you to be pretty fast! ⚡️?

 

Glad it makes sense to you. When I was looking through the books, I came across so much good stuff again. The books really are worth checking out. And since what the Michaels said, is presented in a different font, you can easily skip the parts that are about (the interactions between) the people who were part of the 'Michael-group', if that's not your cup of tea. ??

 

 

 

Edited by Felicitas Brenner
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56 minutes ago, Felicitas Brenner said:

You're so funny @PPLD..you slow?? 1f602.png Depends on the perspective of course, but I find you to be pretty fast! 26a1.png1f680.png

 

Glad it makes sense to you. When I was looking through the books, I came across so much good stuff again. The books really are worth checking out. And since what the Michaels said, is presented in a different font, you can easily skip the parts that are about (the interactions between) the people who were part of the 'Michael-group', if that's not your cup of tea. 1f600.png1f913.png

 

 

 

 

You are too kind my dear ?

 

Yep, I think that today I actually will enjoy the books and learn from them too. My impression was (when I first discovered Michael) that I really don't understand a word of what they are talking about. But today - definitely worth investigating!

 

Thank you gal!

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5 hours ago, Maureen said:

 

@PPLD,  as @Felicitas Brenner said it is mentioned in the CQY books. We can have externally Abrading Overleaves with others and internally Abrading Overleaves within ourselves.  As mentioned by @Erick - "a bit of an incomplete answer on the dynamics of overleaf abrasion, seems like it may be a question that could be its own session some time" - I think it would be a great idea to have Abrading Overleaves as a full length topic.

 

The reason I asked about Abrading Overleaves in the MMW is it's come up for me a couple of times, once recently in my blog The "Hook" in Priests' Inputs where they mentioned this in response to a question: The primary layer of consideration here is simple Personality/Overleaf Abrasion, and one other time that I can recall. 

 

The other time I recall asking about Abrading Overleaves (although I didn't use the term) I got a really interesting answer from Michael and shared it in a blog called Geometry of the Overleaves. Here's a short excerpt:  

 

MEntity:  The dynamic of his Overleaves would naturally make for a rather complex Personality, in that a great deal of his design is not particularly "straight-forward."

 

MEntity:  If you can imagine the "shape" of Overleaves, many may be more like a faceted egg-shape when working together as a Personality, but some are more like blocks connected by circuitry.

 

MEntity:  In the same way that some of our students explore our system as "Michael Math," there is also a kind of "geometry" to the Overleaves.

 

MEntity:  In some combinations, the system is less cohesive, and relies upon a kind of circuitry among the parts, and this can sometimes break down, or seem disjointed to someone whose Overleaves are more "seamless."

 

I'd love to know what "seamless" OL would look or feel like.

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KurtisM
17 hours ago, Juni said:

I'd love to know what "seamless" OL would look or feel like.

 

These are what I base my understanding of cohesive OLs on:

 

SEAMLESS (aka. Wholeness)

Any OLs on the same axis are seamless as they focus on similar themes. They are complete unto themselves.

Server and Priest OLs add up to 7, so they complete one another.

Artisan and Sage OLs add up to 7, so they complete one another.

Warrior and Scholar OLs add up to 7, so they complete one another.

 

COMPATIBLE (aka. Function)

Low Frequency/Focused OLs(Warrior, King, Scholar) hold similar rates of processing+energy ratios, so they can get along well on that note.

Mid Frequency/Balanced OLs(Scholar, Server, Sage) hold similar rates of processing+energy ratios, so they can get along well on that note.

High Frequency/Creative OLs(Sage, Artisan, Priest) hold similar rates of processing+energy ratios, so they can get along well on that note.

 

DYNAMIC (aka. Pacing)

Odd Number Axis OLs(Server, Warrior, Sage) are said to draw to one another & work well in a trio. They produce friction as they always bring chaos out of order.

Even Number Axis OLs(Artisan, Scholar, Priest) are said to draw to one another & work well in a trio. They produce friction as they always bring order out of chaos.

Kings are the apex of this number pacing- as in the mapping of Cadres/Entities, the King Position draws together all separate groups. So this axis produces friction being the odd-one-out and leader of the crew. 7 mixed with any other number can't return to 7- which is wholeness.

 

These are the only axis links not covered above. They all cause friction:

Server+Artisan OLs- These two roles find common ground through nurturing and caring. But Servers do this to tend to your needs, and Artisans do it to bring newness, revitalization, structure and change. So perhaps this carries into their axis too.

Server+King OLs- It's basically the pairing that represents universal cycles, or moving from one "octave" to the next. You have the most ordinal qualities with the most cardinal so there's going to be some challenge with that reconciliation.

Artisan+Warrior OLs- I've read this pairing of Roles finds common ground through a shared sense/use of strategy. Otherwise Artisans think Warriors are too strict+focused, and Warriors think Artisans are too kooky+chaotic. So perhaps this carries into their axis too.

Artisan+King OLs

Warrior+Priest OLs- There's a session that says this pairing tends to be karmic as Warriors follow their Priests in Younger Soul Ages, until they realize they've been exploited and battle against Priests/for themselves. So perhaps this carries into their axis too.

Sage+King OLs- Lol this reminds me of those medieval scenes where a Jester desperately tries to amuse the King so that they can receive income to feed their family. But the King tyrannically declines the Jester and opens up his Castle's trapdoor from underneath them and the Jester plummets to their death. XD
These two axis are motivated quite differently, but can find common ground through big picture thinking and bringing all parts into wholeness.

Priest+King OLs

 

 

Interestingly, Scholar does not show up in this "remainder" category. It already pairs up with all roles in wholeness, function and pacing.

I mean it IS the neutral axis, so that makes sense.

 

Edited by KurtisM
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DianeHB
15 hours ago, KurtisM said:

These are the only axis links not covered above. They all cause friction:

Server+Artisan- These two find common ground through nurturing and caring. But Servers do this to tend to your needs, and Artisans do it to bring newness, revitalization, structure and change.

Server+King- It's basically the pairing that represents universal cycles, or moving from one "octave" to the next.

Artisan+Warrior- I've read this pairing finds common ground through a shared sense/use of strategy. Otherwise Artisans think Warriors are too strict+focused, and Warriors think Artisans are too kooky+chaotic.

Artisan+King

Warrior+Priest- There's a session that says this pairing tends to be karmic as Warriors follow their Priests in Younger Soul Ages, until they realize they've been exploited and battle against Priests/for themselves.

Sage+King- Lol this reminds me of those medieval scenes where a Jester desperately tries to amuse the King so that they can receive income to feed their family. But the King tyranically declines the Jester and opens up his Castle's trapdoor from unerneath them and the Jester plummets to their death. XD

Priest+King

 

 

Interestingly, Scholar does not show up in this "remainder" category. It already pairs up with all roles in wholeness, function and pacing.

I mean it IS the neutral role, so that makes sense.

 

 

Kurtis, are you referring to friction between the roles here or the overleaves relative to those axes? Michael already said at the end that the roles do not abrade with each other, just the overleaves on those axes. To me this list sounds like a bunch of role stereotypes. Any role in their negative poles will abrade with other people, and role in their positive poles are generally easier to get along with. 

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KurtisM
48 minutes ago, DianeHB said:

 

Kurtis, are you referring to friction between the roles here or the overleaves relative to those axes? Michael already said at the end that the roles do not abrade with each other, just the overleaves on those axes. To me this list sounds like a bunch of role stereotypes. Any role in their negative poles will abrade with other people, and role in their positive poles are generally easier to get along with. 

Yes, I mean the axis, but thank you for the clarification.
I used descriptions from the Roles just to show how that pairing of axis finds common ground- as I assumed how roles relate will often give insight into their overleaf dynamics.
---
For instance the Adventurous stretching toward Expansion that Cardinal Expression brings can often be reacted to Eclectically by any Cardinal Action axis as it tries to Inculcate a clear direction.

Or the Ordinal Action's Versatile seeking of constant Enterprise/Challenge tends to cause friction to Cardinal Inspiration's desire for Harmony through Connection.
Ordinal Inspiration and Ordinal Expression are both concerned with nurturing- for the former it's nurturing Inspiration/Meaning through a Simple basis that builds into Purpose, and for the latter it's nurturing Structure/Form through the Balance of things to create Stability.
Ordinal Expression and Ordinal Action are both about strategy; while one does this through Balancing, deconstructing and refining options toward Stable choices- while the other does this through regularly assessing their Versatile course of action/inaction to take and all that's on that path toward creating an Enterprise.


I apologize if they sound like stereotypes- the summaries of stuff like Artisan-Server, Artisan-Warrior, Warrior-Priest and Odd/Even being drawn to their own pacing are based on actual sessions. The only one that isn't is obviously Sage-King(Cardinal Expression-Cardinal Action), which always seemed like a funny pairing for me.

It does seem to be that the Equation of 7 by adding numbers, the gap of frequency/energy in how the axis function, and the rate at which these axis were "born" into being in relation to one another do seem to affect cohesion and friction principles. 
Perhaps my examples with the roles weren't the best choice- I should've differentiated.

EDIT: I edited my previous comment to better reflect this differentiation.
Thanks for the nudge!

Edited by KurtisM
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DianeHB

I've been thinking about the most abrasive overleaves (the King ones) and the least abrasive overleaves (the Server ones) and how that works experientially. While I'm sure there are more detailed reasons why certain overleaves abrade each other, from a very broad perspective, it seems to me that the cardinal overleaves tend toward interactions with other people and expansion of experiences/influence, therefore their agenda and perspectives are more likely to conflict with other people's agenda/perspectives (with Cardinal Action being the most abrasive because it is the most solid/physical influence). People with ordinal overleaves tend toward interactions with the self/one-on-one and refinement of experiences, and people who "keep to themselves" don't tend to have conflicts with other people. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
6 hours ago, ckaricai said:

Started reading this today and remembered this thread. Posting it cause I thought it might be helpful. It's Bloom's Taxonomy, which is used in education. 

http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/bloom.html

 

Yes! We use it in our training development! (I work with development of training for Air Traffic Controllers.) Although our use of action verbs can differ sometimes.

 

But @ckaricai, how were you thinking about it in relation to Overleaves / From the slow gal across the pond...

 

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ckaricai
1 hour ago, PPLD said:

 

Yes! We use it in our training development! (I work with development of training for Air Traffic Controllers.) Although our use of action verbs can differ sometimes.

 

But @ckaricai, how were you thinking about it in relation to Overleaves / From the slow gal across the pond...

 

 

I was thinking of this:

 

Quote

 

There are 7 paths of continued study in our teaching or any other subject of deep interest: EXPOSURE, EXPERIMENTATION, CHALLENGES, APPLICATION, MEANING, SHARING, TEACHING. Application is the assimilative stage and can be inserted anywhere in this map.

 

Many of our students will choose a path of study and then move into Application, but not move to another path.

 

Most of these terms should be fairly self-explanatory, but we will briefly elaborate before opening to questions.

 

EXPOSURE - the initial introduction to any new concept or new angle on a known concept.

 

EXPERIMENTATION - questioning, testing, observing, exploring that new concept.

 

CHALLENGES - the concept is met with conflict, conflicting experience, confusing experience, debate, doubt, and found to not work as expected.

 

MEANING - the concept is finally owned, understood, and its value clear to the student.

 

SHARING - you see the concept could be valuable and meaningful to others and seek to find ways to share your knowledge as insight, guidance, advice, or introduce others to the concept for them to explore on their own.

 

TEACHING - the student now lives with the concept fully integrated so that simply existing becomes a model for the concept and others can see the effects and influence of this teaching with or without actual introduction to terminology or details.

 

APPLICATION - the concept is at a resting plateau as other concepts are explored and pieced together with it.

 

The sequence of learning tends to be in this order, with Application inserted as necessary.

 

More accurately, this is the Sequence of Continued Study”

 

 

 

it it seemed to me that these levels might correspond to the levels of learning in Bloom’s taxonomy, specifically, the cognitive domain.

 

Knowledge/Remembering might correspond to Exposure. 

 

Comprehension on might correspond to Experimentation and Challenges

 

Sharing might correspond to Evaluating. 

 

Meaning, Teaching, and Application  might correspond to Creating.

 

It’s not an exact 1:1 comparison but the similarities seem there to me. I currently don’t have the brain power to analyze this further, but I found this interesting and thought someone else might notice too. Sorry I forgot to clarify. My brain is mush since I started teaching. Now I know why my high school teachers seemed frazzled and disheveled. LOL

20EDD051-9CC9-43B2-924A-EC49301EB4AD.jpeg

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Ah! Interesting! Have to re-read the Workshop in light of this.

 

7 hours ago, ckaricai said:

My brain is mush since I started teaching. Now I know why my high school teachers seemed frazzled and disheveled. LOL

?

How is it going BTW?!? How are the kiddos? You like it?

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ckaricai
24 minutes ago, PPLD said:

Ah! Interesting! Have to re-read the Workshop in light of this.

 

1f601.png

How is it going BTW?!? How are the kiddos? You like it?

 

I teach high school so teens are teens regardless, but for the most part they are great.  It's all the other stuff that is terribly difficult. There's too much to do and not enough time to do it and you're under a microscope while you do it. It's only october and I've already had two observations with another one coming this week. I'm up till 2am nearly every night trying to do English Language Arts lesson plans (without a real curriculum) with three different levels of differentiation (which include ways for nonverbal and partially verbal students who are also english language learners to interact with the lesson) with three activities per level  per lesson because I've got classes with wildly varying degrees of academic ability and ability to communicate in the same class.  I have no idea if this kind of classroom placement is typical or not. I kind of dislike ELA because it's too broad. I never have any idea what text or theme to teach. I'd rather be teaching science or social studies.  I had no idea teaching special ed would be this hard actually. An added layer of difficulty is that I don't have a smartboard or a projector in my classroom. I'll have to raise money to buy one.  Scrambling to make a million copies is giving me aggita. I'm starting to feel anxious in my gut every time I sit to lesson plan. It's giving me indigestion and bubble gut, and I've already had a cold from lack of sleep. There's just a lot of stuff I don't know and the learning curve is steep. It' almost like, it doesn't matter if I don't know how to do certain things, they still need to get done yesterday. I get leeway as a first year teacher up to a point. Everyone says the first year is the hardest but this is ridiculous.  I really see a need for a complete overhaul of my country's education system but it would require a change in the way this country views children and they way we value education and educators. That mature paradigm shift couldn't come fast enough. I keep trying to imagine what education would look like 100 or 200 years from now. What would the difficulty level be for educators? How would children with disabilities be accommodated? Would the education system still be based on politics? 

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5 hours ago, ckaricai said:

 

I teach high school so teens are teens regardless, but for the most part they are great.  It's all the other stuff that is terribly difficult. There's too much to do and not enough time to do it and you're under a microscope while you do it. It's only october and I've already had two observations with another one coming this week. I'm up till 2am nearly every night trying to do English Language Arts lesson plans (without a real curriculum) with three different levels of differentiation (which include ways for nonverbal and partially verbal students who are also english language learners to interact with the lesson) with three activities per level  per lesson because I've got classes with wildly varying degrees of academic ability and ability to communicate in the same class.  I have no idea if this kind of classroom placement is typical or not. I kind of dislike ELA because it's too broad. I never have any idea what text or theme to teach. I'd rather be teaching science or social studies.  I had no idea teaching special ed would be this hard actually. An added layer of difficulty is that I don't have a smartboard or a projector in my classroom. I'll have to raise money to buy one.  Scrambling to make a million copies is giving me aggita. I'm starting to feel anxious in my gut every time I sit to lesson plan. It's giving me indigestion and bubble gut, and I've already had a cold from lack of sleep. There's just a lot of stuff I don't know and the learning curve is steep. It' almost like, it doesn't matter if I don't know how to do certain things, they still need to get done yesterday. I get leeway as a first year teacher up to a point. Everyone says the first year is the hardest but this is ridiculous.  I really see a need for a complete overhaul of my country's education system but it would require a change in the way this country views children and they way we value education and educators. That mature paradigm shift couldn't come fast enough. I keep trying to imagine what education would look like 100 or 200 years from now. What would the difficulty level be for educators? How would children with disabilities be accommodated? Would the education system still be based on politics? 

 

Oh MAN does this system need an overhaul!!!

I am sorry to hear that the working conditions (in terms of resources) and requirements on your focus (HOW is it even a thing that a teacher raises money for basic school equipment?!?) are so unreasonable!

 

How does it work with unions in the US? Can yours be of help here? Or if you all colleagues unite and put pressure on the management? (How naive do I sound on a scale..?)

 

Cari, you do need to watch yourself to not get burned-out, gal. Easy to say, but remember to take care of yourself in all that!

 

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ckaricai
On 10/9/2017 at 6:24 PM, PPLD said:

 

Oh MAN does this system need an overhaul!!!

I am sorry to hear that the working conditions (in terms of resources) and requirements on your focus (HOW is it even a thing that a teacher raises money for basic school equipment?!?) are so unreasonable!

 

How does it work with unions in the US? Can yours be of help here? Or if you all colleagues unite and put pressure on the management? (How naive do I sound on a scale..?)

 

Cari, you do need to watch yourself to not get burned-out, gal. Easy to say, but remember to take care of yourself in all that!

 

 

There is a very strong teacher’s union here. But it turns out my issues are typical for public school. Resources for school are tied to property taxes and the neighborhood I teach in has a lot of folks on public assistance. Not really sure if the teacher’s union can do much about that. The school system here is wound very deeply with politics, and the main problem is that there is not enough money and it doesn’t help that Betsy Devoss, our new Secretary of Educatioj is stripping public schools of money. That’s a whole other thing. 

 

I managed to raise enough money for some basic tech. I got a printer and i’m Getting a projector, so things will get easier. Currently doing district testing so I don’t have to lesson plan too heavily at the moment. I got an full 12 hours of sleep yesterday and seven hours today so I feel tons better. Thanks for asking. 

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