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DISCUSSION: Healing a Sickness in Our Community

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Hjortur

I confirm that it was the last thread in my blog, "A Deer's Life" that got deleted. Troy deleted this thread after my own request. May this community heal fast and grow even stronger.

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Maxim [memorial profile]

Bravo @Troy for finding a more self reflective/empathetic stance.  Yesterday I was in a state of mania feeling like I had all the answers/power/love... fueled by the idea "I am dying so I can do/say anything".  It was both fun and toxic.  Getting through the night brought me to a new state. Whew!!!

 

It is a milestone in itself to come back from the brink of destruction, worthy of a quiet celebration.

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Troy
6 hours ago, Maxim said:

Bravo @Troy for finding a more self reflective/empathetic stance. 

1

 

Actually, I had the same reflective and empathetic stance in the deleted thread as I have here. It's just that I was responding to something more specific in the deleted thread, and now I am responding to something broader in scope. That is the only difference. What I was on about in the deleted thread was meaningful and important to me and people like me. It was confusing and upsetting to people who couldn't relate to how important that conversation was. And now this post here is more acceptable and meaningful because it is about all of us. Whether it looks like it or not, I try to be reflective and empathetic in all of my responses here on TLE. But yeah, sometimes not so much.

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Nadine

Thank you for proposing some healing @Troy - is there a specific way you want to go about it? In the last thread my posts to you were completely ignored and I would like to make sure the discussion here is more fruitful. I'll happily partake if there is dialogue.

 

Thank you @Hjortur for still being here.

 

I hope we all find our way back together and manage to be more empathetic in the next debate! We can do it!

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Troy
11 hours ago, Nadine said:

Thank you for proposing some healing @Troy - is there a specific way you want to go about it? In the last thread my posts to you were completely ignored and I would like to make sure the discussion here is more fruitful. I'll happily partake if there is dialogue.

 

Thank you @Hjortur for still being here.

 

I hope we all find our way back together and manage to be more empathetic in the next debate! We can do it!

 

One of the first things that could be addressed is to keep our projections in check. Deciding what is true and then acting on it is very different from knowing what is true. 

 

For example, your posts were not "completely ignored." I saw every one of them. You could not know that because I didn't respond, but knowing what is true and deciding what is true are very different things. It's not fair to anyone to just decide what is true. You decided that your posts were ignored, but you didn't really know. Sometimes it's okay to just not know and stay open until you know the truth. The truth is that I chose not to respond for various reasons I won't go into here, but your posts weren't ignored.

 

Another example is that the deleted thread was receiving posts so quickly that some people were totally losing context. They were assuming that a reply was meant for one thing when it was meant for something else entirely. They were not accounting for the time it takes a write a post and how many posts were coming in during that time. And then they would be outraged and further exacerbate and accelerate the situation because they didn't take context into account. They just decided what was true and acted on it and then refused to believe anything other than what they decided was true. That's not helpful for anyone.

 

To keep from "Getting Sick," it is always helpful to KNOW what is true over DECIDING what is true. So that's a good place to start.

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Nadine
37 minutes ago, Troy said:

One of the first things that could be addressed is to keep our projections in check. Deciding what is true and then acting on it is very different from knowing what is true. 

 

For example, your posts were not "completely ignored." I saw every one of them. You could not know that because I didn't respond, but knowing what is true and deciding what is true are very different things.

 

@Troy That was not a projection. The very definition of "ignoring" is taking notice of something and deciding not to respond. That is literally the dictionary definition of it. I did not say you didn't see them. I said you ignored them and you just said so yourself (unless there is a different definition of "ignoring" in English that I am not aware of). It's even okay if you chose to do so. But then there's no need for me to invest any energy in a discussion where I'm being ignored, so that's why I asked. In the other thread, for most of the time, everyone just blurted out their own convictions, projections, opinions and fears without even trying to listen to each other or to understand each other. To me, healing would come if we're open for each other, trying to understand each others view point and trying to find a middle ground. If this thread is to be like the previous one, with no one listening to each other, closing off completely to each other, then I don't see where the healing is going to come from. There needs to be an open hearted dialogue. At least in my opinion.

 

My post, however, was not meant to trigger you again. I'm sorry if it did. It was a sincere inquiry of how you would like to go about this discussion in this thread. That other thread completely escalated. Now we need to try to heal and not just start the same unfruitful discussion all over again. I'd really appreciate if we could put the focus on that right now. Would you please be so kind to respond me my initial question: What do you suggest for discussion and healing in this thread? 

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Troy
5 minutes ago, Nadine said:

 

@Troy That was not a projection. The very definition of "ignoring" is taking notice of something and deciding not to respond. That is literally the dictionary definition of it. I did not say you didn't see them.

 

 

Okay, I understand. I love semantics, so thank you for clarifying. I was reading "ignore" from the definition "to fail to consider as something significant." Your post seemed to be saying that you expected a response. Your follow up here confirms that you are still looking for a response. So it seemed that you thought I "failed to consider your posts as significant."  I did ignore your posts by virtue of not responding, but I did also consider them significant. Fun with words! LOL

 

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Nadine

@Troy I'm not waiting for a response on anything I said in the previous thread. We closed that thread. And that was probably for the better.

 

The answer I was hoping and asking for was about how to go about the healing discussion in this thread. Or is this it? Are we doing it already? LOL

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Troy
4 minutes ago, Nadine said:

@Troy I'm not waiting for a response on anything I said in the previous thread. We closed that thread. And that was probably for the better.

 

The answer I was hoping and asking for was about how to go about the healing discussion in this thread. Or is this it? Are we doing it already? LOL

 

Oh yeah, I was just responding to your clarification about "ignore," which was your direct reference to your replies in the other thread. I already know we have moved on from that.

 

And I guess my original post was an invitation to express our understanding and relief to return to the truth of kindness and love that defines this community. We lost ourselves in the toxicity that rose out of the other discussion. It was a perfect storm of agendas that just did not mix well. For some, it was just an important and heated discussion that was leading toward breakthroughs and understanding. For others, it was an unnecessary and annoying discussion that they just wanted to shut down. For some, it was a platform for telling people how they should feel and how they should express themselves. For some, it was a defining event that instantly (and inexplicably) destroyed all relationships with TLE and me.

 

It was a mess. Because life is messy. But most of us can learn and grow from it. So here we are.

 

So yeah, I don't have a plan. I just wanted to invite people to return to nurturing this space as a loving and kind space. That might mean being silent and taking a deep breath, or it might mean posting here to say something constructive or nurturing. No pressure. No plan. Just... an invitation to remember who we are.

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Nadine
4 minutes ago, Troy said:

So yeah, I don't have a plan. I just wanted to invite people to return to nurturing this space as a loving and kind space. That might mean being silent and taking a deep breath, or it might mean posting here to say something constructive or nurturing. No pressure. No plan. Just... an invitation to remember who we are.

 

Great, got it! Thank you for clarifying.

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Maxim [memorial profile]
16 minutes ago, Troy said:

We lost ourselves in the toxicity that rose out of the other discussion. It was a perfect storm of agendas that just did not mix well. For some, it was just an important and heated discussion that was leading toward breakthroughs and understanding. For others, it was an unnecessary and annoying discussion that they just wanted to shut down. For some, it was a platform for telling people how they should feel and how they should express themselves. For some, it was a defining event that instantly (and inexplicably) destroyed all relationships with TLE and me.

 

That is a helluva lot for one event to signify.  Right up there with the coming of the IS!!   LOL

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Bobby
1 hour ago, Maxim said:

 

That is a helluva lot for one event to signify.  Right up there with the coming of the IS!!   LOL

 

I hope Jesus doesn't come again.  We're all out of towels down here!  ?

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Luciana Flora

What I felt when watching this discussion. It was not much different from what I feel in any conflict situation. I do not deal well with conflict.

  My tendency is to withdraw or try to convince people not to fight.

I've seen a lot of people fight and even end the friendship because of politics. And that topic just confirmed my fears.

I remember when I was a kid and I saw two people fighting, I walked away.
But when it comes to conflict, it does not matter the topic. My reaction is always the same.

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Maxim [memorial profile]

Oh Lord @Bobby, you're gonna have to explain that one.  Towells???  Jesus???

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Bobby
12 minutes ago, Maxim said:

Oh Lord @Bobby, you're gonna have to explain that one.  Towells???  Jesus???

 

Man I was hoping you got that one so I wouldn't have to spell it out and stay "cool"  :)

 

Ok, Jesus, an IS, is expected to come again by Christians.  It just reminds me of the joke "Jesus is coming again. Quick, someone get him a towel"  Vary the spelling of the word "come" if it still isn't clear... yeesh.  Now I'm blushing.

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Maxim [memorial profile]

HA, HA, HA. 

 

I guess TLE has been blue too long.

 

Blue:

16. characterized by or stemming from rigid morals or religion:

statutes that were blue and unrealistic.

17. marked by blasphemy:

The air was blue with oaths.

 

I didn't want your mind to go any other way.

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Terri Benning
17 hours ago, Nadine said:

Thank you for proposing some healing @Troy - is there a specific way you want to go about it? In the last thread my posts to you were completely ignored and I would like to make sure the discussion here is more fruitful. I'll happily partake if there is dialogue.

 

Thank you @Hjortur for still being here.

 

I hope we all find our way back together and manage to be more empathetic in the next debate! We can do it!

 

Just a note of reminder that politics are, by their very nature divisive, and are intended to be so in fact. I'm not sure they ever really can be discussed "neutrally" because everyone has their own subjective, as well as their own objective perspective and most people feel pretty strongly about those personal perspectives. Politics always creates "sides" because it is the very nature of the game itself to do so. 

Edited by Terri Benning
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AnnH

I read through the deleted thread yesterday and it was both painful and a learning experience. I didn't get involved because I've not been a participant here much in a while so didn't feel comfortable putting my oar in. As a Sage,  my temptation is to inflict my opinion wherever but I abstained :)

 

So now I will.

 

Like Nadine and Troy, I'm fascinated by semantics and how they're construed. The term privilege has become loaded in the US and is often misunderstood. I'll speak for myself: I am a white, cis-gendered, straight, middle-aged woman (heading to elderly) who was raised upper-middle-class in the US. I have been broke, but not poor, because I had family funds to draw upon if I was in dire need. So I have privilege in 4 of six of what are systemic advantages in the US. I am not ashamed of these privileges because I had nothing to do with them, except birth choice. I do need to always recognize that I have had advantages from birth that many others haven't had, so I should effing keep my mouth shut about stuff I don't know about, which would be the experience of those who are LGBTQ, of an ethnic, religious and racial minority,  or who live in real financial fear and poverty. In the US we are living in a place where people who aren't white, cis-gendered, and often male are being threatened in a way I haven't seen in my adult life. And it's being condoned and encouraged by the current administration.

 

This is about a system which privileges a certain group or groups to the detriment of others. It's important for those of us who have had privilege in this system to hear and support the voices of those with (I think) justified fear about the current course of events in the US. You don't have to feel privileged to live in a system in which you are privileged. We're all hurt and scarred.

 

 

 

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AnnH
22 minutes ago, Terri Benning said:

 

Just a note of reminder that politics are, by their very nature divisive, and are intended to be so in fact. I'm not sure they ever really can be discussed "neutrally" because everyone has their own subjective, as well as their own objective perspective and most people feel pretty strongly about those personal perspectives. Politics always creates "sides" because it is the very nature of the game itself to do so. 

 

Excellent point! So true.

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DanielaS
1 hour ago, Bobby said:

 

Ok, Jesus, an IS, is expected to come again by Christians.  It just reminds me of the joke "Jesus is coming again. Quick, someone get him a towel"  Vary the spelling of the word "come" if it still isn't clear... yeesh.  Now I'm blushing.

Um, I thought the joke was because after he was crucified he was wrapped in "towels". It made sense to me. It wasn't funny, but it made sense. ? 

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Maxim [memorial profile]

@Terri Benning  Thanks.  One thing I forgot was the idea of shock or disruption that is part of the teaching.  In this case from Gurdjief who described motion through the steps of an octave, noting that shocks were needed to keep things on course.  Without the harsh disruption of my thought I don't think I would have thought much about some of these issues.  I sleep so well.

 

I could be wrong and having the space and the peace to survey the scene might be a better way to comprehend what is going on. 

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AnnaD

I wish that the default human learning strength was not learning through suffering. But it is. I wonder if this continues throughout the grand cycle? I wonder if any other sentient species has as much morbid humour as humans? Are whales as morbid as we are? It probably doesn't help that humans pollute their habitat. 

 

Honestly, would the grand cycle be so very long if humans learned through love and not fear? I am not volunteering by the way. As a Scholar I have to have my objective, rational, not easily hurt or frazzled, science glasses on. Thought first, compassion later, etc. Until it happens to me, etc. I try to be compassionate first, but lived experience informs my degrees of compassion greatly, as it does for anyone. Fear is there to inform us only, it is not there to ruin and rule us. With the information provided by our warning system of fear, we have choices, and communication, to use as safely and carefully of others as we can. 

 

 

Edited by AnnaD
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Nicko

@Troy would it be possible to chat with you in private? I have some un-answered questions from the deleted post that is important to me that I get an answer about.
I wish to do it in private because Im afraid of re-igniting the last post if I do it here.
if you're still on discord, then we could perhaps chat there.

Edited by Nicko
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Sarah
30 minutes ago, AnnaD said:

I wish that the default human learning strength was not learning through suffering. But it is. I wonder if this continues throughout the grand cycle? I wonder if any other sentient species has as much morbid humour as humans? Are whales as morbid as we are? It probably doesn't help that humans pollute their habitat. 

 

Honestly, would the grand cycle be so very long if humans learned through love and not fear?

 

Good questions. Is a cetacean's Grand Cycle as long as a human's? Or do they "get it" faster?

 

Sometimes I look at other animals, then at humans, and I think about how ridiculously complicated we've made everything for ourselves. We spend all this time creating societies that imprint us with all sorts of nonsense, and then even more time trying to shed that imprinting. ?

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