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DISCUSSION: Healing a Sickness in Our Community

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Troy

ON PRIVILEGE

 

DEFINITION: An advantage an individual or group holds with or without awareness over other systematically disenfranchised social groups. Typically, a privileged group or individual is that which is considered "normal" or "socially acceptable."

 

The subject of Privilege is a touchy subject and it came up as a priority Global Truth to explore in the deleted thread. It is really important to understand that Privilege is a GOOD THING. We want EVERYONE to get to that place. We envy and long for expanding our access to Privileges. Privilege does not automatically mean a bad thing or that someone has done something wrong. It is often called out when people are recklessly unaware of the power of their Privilege so it looks like a bad thing, but that's because there are two kinds of Privilege:

 

BLIND PRIVILEGE vs EMPOWERED PRIVILEGE

 

Blind Privilege is what gets called out. It gets called out because a person has no idea that he or she is talking or acting from a completely skewed view of reality that does not account for those with less Privilege. It is called out when someone with Privilege (intentionally or unintentionally) dismisses or adds to the struggle of others with little to no Privileges.

 

Empowered Privilege is when you own your position of Privilege and accept that is was no more your choice to be in this position of Privilege than it is for those with no Privileges. You are BORN into Privilege. Some Privilege can be gained in a life, but mostly you are born into it. You recognize this and do not feel guilty about your Privilege. You do not defend it or abuse it and if someone calls it out, you are right there to agree and understand and listen. You use your position of Privilege to help others or at the very least to NOT make life worse for those with no Privileges.

 

TLE is a huge mix of people born with and without Privileges. Let's take a look at the hierarchy of Privileges and see how many you can check off. This is not a comprehensive or nuanced list, but these tend to be the most obvious. These tend to be true across the planet (a Global Truth).

 

WHAT YOU SAY AND DO MATTERS

 

Calling out Privilege is not meant to shut you up. It is to remind you that what you say and do matters more than you may realize. The more you can check off from the list below, the more listening and learning and patience required of you in conversations about Equality, Rights, and Oppression. Because what you have to say matters and carries more weight than others, so you want to be much more mindful and considerate in what you say than you would normally expect of yourself. It may be a new feeling, but it is a good one once you shift into Empowered Privilege.

 

RIGHTS vs PRIVILEGES

 

Most of us who call out Privilege are still fighting for our Rights and trying to gain allies among the Privileged to help us. It is very difficult for anyone to have any Privilege when they have few or no Rights. So it is really important to understand that those of us who are fighting for our Rights have a very long way to go before we can even dream of the Privilege that many have.

 

PRIVILEGE vs HARDSHIPS

 

Being Privileged does not exempt or protect you from Hardships. There is a big difference between the discussion of Hardships and the discussion of Privileges. Everyone can suffer Hardships, even the Privileged. When Privilege is called out, it's not meant to say you do not suffer Hardships. But it is true that Privilege will tend to afford you more resources for navigating and responding to Hardships, though.

 

INTERSECTIONALITY

 

When reading this list, keep in mind INTERSECTIONALITY: This is how your Privileges are either stacked or countered. For example, I am male and white (Privileges) countered heavily by being Gay. Some may be an Intersection of all Privileges. Some may be an Intersection of all non-Privilege. Some may be a mix. Knowing where you are in your Intersectionality as compared to others can really help you to move toward Empowered Privilege.

 

PRIVILEGE CHECK LIST (in no particular order)

 

Male privilege: This form of privilege is manifested in individuals who identify as male and who were assigned male at birth living in a patriarchal society. Examples of male privilege include, but are not limited to, being able to walk home at night without fear of attack, having male-centric storylines vastly dominate all forms of media, and having greater employment benefits and opportunities than equally qualified female counterparts.

 

White privilege: Power in Western society has long been associated with being white. Historic discrimination and racism have deep roots in our society that propagate this disturbingly unequal distribution of power to this day. While examples of white privilege are clearly evident in all aspects of the mainstream media, a prominent example of white privilege in the media today regards police violence being directed towards people of color. White privilege is not having to fear for your life during every exchange with law enforcement.

 

Heterosexual privilege: This form of privilege is most obvious when considering the metaphorical closet in which all Queer identifying persons reside. Heterosexuality is almost always assumed of an individual and thus forces Queer to continually undergo the process of "coming out." The storylines of mainstream media programming focus aggressively on the relationships of heterosexual individuals and frequently also portray offensively stereotyped caricatures of Queer characters.

 

Gender identity privilege: This privilege is held by individuals whose gender identity matches that which they were assigned at birth (this is referred to as cisgender). It is rare to see the stories of non-gender conforming individuals told in the mainstream media and when they are it is all too common to see them mocked and suggested to be disgusting. The misrepresentation of non-gender conforming individuals in the media has been extreme and puts these individuals at a disadvantage to their cisgendered (or gender conforming) counterparts.

 

Religious privilege: To have religious privilege is to be a member of the religion that dominates a given culture. In Western society, this privilege is given to members of the Christian faith whose traditions are normalized and the tenets of other faiths are portrayed as radical, mystical, and are frequently rejected. An example of this in the media today is the portrayal of Islam as a violent and extreme faith that harbors only terrorists within its vast community of participants in the faith.

 

Social Class privilege: Social class is often closely linked with economic status in that those with greater financial resources find themselves in the social class with the most power. Class frequently determines the availability of opportunities in both education and vocation, and this leads to a system of self-perpetuation in giving those with greater resources greater social privileges, therefore, making it even harder for those of an outside class to break in.

 

Ability privilege: To have ability privilege is to be free of physical and mental disabilities with which many individuals struggle the entirety of their lives. Examples of ability privilege include being able to access any and all buildings regardless of their wheelchair capabilities, having minimal dietary restrictions and being able to choose from all options at restaurants, and being able to focus in certain settings without the help of medication.

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DianeHB
1 hour ago, Troy said:

 

This is what I was describing where people are more invested in their Feelings than in The Truth. When you have some people demanding respect for their Feelings and blaming others for their Feelings and some people thinking we are still talking about The Truth and trying to get this across to people who have decided their Feelings are more important than The Truth, it can get really confusing and ugly. It looks like everyone is trying to be "right," but they are just talking about very different things. As someone who has engaged in many many many uncomfortable "political" conversation, it is a very common (and often unconscious) defense tactic to shift the topic away from The Truth and toward Feelings.

 

I know this still looks like The Truth is "right" and Feelings are "wrong," but that's not how it works. Both are important and can be addressed, just not always at the same time. Also, we ALONE can do something about our Feelings. We do not need to convince others to conform to or accept or align with our Feelings. Feelings tell us about ourselves, not other people. We do not always have a choice in controlling what is True, but we always have a choice in how we control our Feelings. We can all do something together with The Truth, but we can't always do something together about your Feelings. 

 

I don't disagree with that at all, but I think you missed the point of my post. By the time you were bringing up feelings vs truth in the deleted discussion, people had already stopped listening and were entrenched in their positions. When that happens, there is very little you can say that will change their minds, and you can choose to continue pushing to get them to accept your truths or back away and try again when they're less defensive. Most people's minds aren't changed in a day or in a single conversation. 

 

"Being right" is actually not about truth vs feelings -- I think we'd be lying if we said that feelings weren't triggered on both sides. "Being right" is about "winning" the argument and safeguarding the ego. Even though I agreed with everything you said and still agree, I value actually changing the other person's perspective more than I value winning an argument. That sometimes means backing out and playing "the long game". 

 

Edited by DianeHB
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Dawn
18 hours ago, Joanne said:

Hi, finally, to all TLE members!


I was introduced to the Teachings and to the site by an in-law.  I have been extremely thankful and grateful to this individual and they know it!  It is because of this in-law relationship that I have chosen to be a quiet member on the site so as not to step into their territory even though they have said, repeatedly, "I have ZERO problem with it if I was inclined to do so."  In the midst of the deleted thread and this thread I feel inclined to do so now.

 

Let me begin by saying that I live on Long Island in New York.  I am approximately an hour away from where Troy lives without any traffic, but there is never not any traffic! LOL!  This TRUMP EFFECT that Troy talks about is something that I have witnessed now for more than two years.  It is real!  It is ugly!  It is pervasive!  

 

Despite being white and raised as a catholic (even though I choose not to be now) I do have one strike against me; I am a female!  As a result of being a female in this Trump era, I am finding myself in situations that I have NEVER had to defend myself in EVER!  I have been chastised not only by the husbands of my closest friends, but by my husband as well.

 

EXAMPLE 1:  My friends husband had the audacity to continuously come after me because I commented that "I would not mind paying more in taxes so everyone  would be able to have health insurance!"  KILL ME!!!  I was reprimanded in front of my friends, and my husband, with him pounding his fists on the table while standing and yelling at me "YOU DON'T PAY ANY TAXES!"  Needless to say, my Warrior Casting came in handy as I told him to "BACK IT UP and SIT THE FUCK DOWN!"  Even though I had, and still have no problem standing up for myself, not one person sitting at that table called him out on his SHIT!  Not even my husband!  

 

EXAMPLE 2:  While enjoying a Sunday at the beach and participating with my husband, my cousin and her husband in a heated discussion relating to my opinion about the passenger that was dragged off the plane unconscious I was called out by an asshole Trump supporter who was sitting behind us.  He said and I quote "I suppose you like Hillary too!"  WTF!!!  SERIOUSLY!!!  MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS!!!  My reply to this DEPLORABLE being was " No, I just like people who are nice!"  Regardless of the answer I gave him, he continued his rhetoric by walking over to my cousins husband and trying to infect the conversation even more.  Thankfully, my cousins husband blew him off and he finally got the message and left!  Again, my husband was silent!

 

EXAMPLE 3:  I have been referred to as a bleeding heart liberal by my husband on more than one occasion lately!!  It has been eye opening, to say the least, to realize after 36 years of marriage that my husband and I are on opposite sides of the aisle!  I hope our marriage can withstand the TOXIC TRUMP EFFECT!!!  My patience with him is starting to wane.    

 

Contrary to everything stated above I, somehow being female and not paying any taxes, was able to put twin girls through college at the same time w/o going bankrupt, learned and dabbled a little bit in the stock market which helped US to purchase the house we are living in now, continue to have an excellent credit score year after year (I am the only one paying the bills, so I guess I can take credit for that too) and I will probably be making all the decisions about my husbands retirement within the next year or two.

 

Due to this TRUMP EFFECT I have found it, sadly, necessary to defend myself and my capabilities as a mother, as a wife and as a female!  I stand up against this EFFECT because I am a MOTHER who has raised 2 DAUGHTERS that will, l hope by my actions, refuse to be treated by anyone with such disrespectful words and actions!!!  FYI:  The husband in EXAMPLE 1 has 2 daughters!!  I guess I stood up for them too!!  Go me!!  

             

Troy, you wrote a beautiful story, and you created this beautiful site!!  Don't let any of this take the wind out of your sails!!  I am not here to take sides!!  That is what this TRUMP EFFECT tries to do, hence why it is so toxic! 

 

Now, as I hope I haven't offended my in-law too much, I will end this by saying hang in there to all who feel this TOXIC TRUMP EFFECT, and continue to stand up and make a difference!!!  Make your voices heard!!!  I better stop!! I've gone on way to long for a first blog entry!!!  LOL 

 

 

       

Well, hello there and welcome!! You came out of the gate running! ?

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Troy
16 minutes ago, Nadine said:

 

I think we're all on board with your Truth here, Troy, so there is no need to assume it is a defense tactic. I know that it is often used that way, but not always. Please try to keep that in mind.

 

 

It was quite possible to have honored both Feelings and Truth, we just failed to do so. They were not mutually exclusive. No need to choose.

 

Just to be clear: it isn't "my" Truth. The Truth of Privilege is Global.

 

It is entirely possible to honor both Feelings and The Truth, and they are not mutually exclusive, I agree.

 

One way to honor Feelings is to understand that others are not responsible for our Feelings. We honor Feelings when we do not demand that others be responsible for our Feelings. We honor Feelings when we own our Feelings and look at what they mean about us instead of what they mean about others.

 

Another way to honor both the Truth and Feelings is to keep in heart and mind that when people are talking about sensitive and passionate topics, we make room for the Feelings that can sometimes come to the surface and express themselves in abrasive, aggressive, and even harsh or reactionary words. Cool heads and calm words have nothing to do with respecting each other or our Feelings. Some of the cruelest and most disgusting and vile things are said in calm, cool, eloquent language. Some of the most meaningful and moving things are said in harsh and violently colorful language. To restrict language and communication in a community to a single acceptable tone, especially when discussing sensitive and passionate subjects, is counterproductive to honoring Feelings and The Truth.

 

This is why I do not have explicit rules on TLE for how to communicate. Communication is a messy thing. Some do it better than others. Some have more Feelings than others. We all have different boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable, and I can't possibly anticipate what those will be for everyone. For me, no person crossed any lines in the deleted thread. I saw a big toxic mess that triggered people, but no one was out to harm anyone. That's a really important part of the equation. Not a single person in that thread was out to hurt anyone. In fact, it was just the opposite. Everyone was trying to help. Just with different priorities for what needed help.

 

I have been hosting and managing communities for decades and that conversation came nowhere near crossing any lines that would require intervention.

 

I have been hosting and managing TLE for nearly 20 years. THAT was the worst conversation we have ever had. I mean, come on... we have a great thing going here. I think we honor Feelings and The Truth here on a regular basis. I am perfectly fine with a hiccup or two.

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Nadine
11 minutes ago, Troy said:

Another way to honor both the Truth and Feelings is to keep in heart and mind that when people are talking about sensitive and passionate topics, we make room for the Feelings that can sometimes come to the surface and express themselves in abrasive, aggressive, and even harsh or reactionary words. Cool heads and calm words have nothing to do with respecting each other or our Feelings. Some of the cruelest and most disgusting and vile things are said in calm, cool, eloquent language. Some of the most meaningful and moving things are said in harsh and violently colorful language. To restrict language and communication in a community to a single acceptable tone, especially when discussing sensitive and passionate subjects, is counterproductive to honoring Feelings and The Truth.

 

Oh, I see we're finally starting to get on the same page here, that is so cool! I'm completely on board with not restricting language here, that should never be the case and I am glad nobody ever suggested it. Each of us can choose to stay aware when we get triggered too much and manage to collect ourselves to go back to a meaningful and fruitful discussion, like Diane said. That's great!

 

 

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Troy
39 minutes ago, DianeHB said:

 

I don't disagree with that at all, but I think you missed the point of my post. By the time you were bringing up feelings vs truth in the deleted discussion, people had already stopped listening and were entrenched in their positions. When that happens, there is very little you can say that will change their minds, and you can choose to continue pushing to get them to accept your truths or back away and try again when they're less defensive. Most people's minds aren't changed in a day or in a single conversation. 

 

"Being right" is actually not about truth vs feelings -- I think we'd be lying if we said that feelings weren't triggered on both sides. "Being right" is about "winning" the argument and safeguarding the ego. Even though I agreed with everything you said and still agree, I value actually changing the other person's perspective more than I value winning an argument. That sometimes means backing out and playing "the long game". 

 

 

Okay, I see what you mean. 

 

I think there is a difference between the persistent effort to get a point across that we hope will create that common ground of understanding vs just satisfying the ego's need to be "right." I saw some people trying to get a point across to help create a common ground of understanding and others demanding compliance, concession, and apologies. To me, the latter is more concerned with being "right." 

 

I agree that everyone had feelings triggered. I always knew that. That's natural. I had a LOT of feelings! lol How we take responsibility for those feelings is what makes the difference.

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Troy
8 minutes ago, Nadine said:

I'm completely on board with not restricting language here, that should never be the case and I am glad nobody ever suggested it. 

 

 

Actually, it was suggested several times, but that's moot at this point. Glad we are getting closer to the same page now!

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Nadine
1 minute ago, Troy said:

Actually, it was suggested several times, but that's moot at this point.

 

Oh, okay, then maybe I didn't see it. I can wholeheartedly say that I think it's okay for a conversation to get messy and I said so several times.

 

I'm also glad we're acknowledging that there have indeed been reactionary posts from both sides. Conversations can get messy, we can get reactionary. But this whole escalation happened on a site of Michael students and so I think it's great we're agreeing that it's good to check in on oneself to see if one is responding based on Feelings, projections and fears and then adjust. This has nothing to do with the Truth. One can be speaking the Truth and still be reactionary and have projections in place. So, trying to apply this Teaching, it's always good to keep that in check, no matter if one is speaking the Truth or not. Again, not mutually exclusive.

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Hjortur
2 hours ago, ClaireC said:

I did, too, @DanielaS!  LOL!  We should have known to expect something more deviant from @Bobby. 1f609.png

I was equally ignorant about @Bobby "getting the towels before Jesus comes" joke. I was innocently thinking about J washing feets or something. Then when he emphasized "Comes"...!

Thinking about it still makes me giggle and then I have to find an alternative explanation to explain why to the kids.

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Maxim [memorial profile]

Thanks @Troy a light bulb went off in my head.

 

I realized we were coming from different attitudes.  Me as spiritualist was seeing all the possibilities.  You gravitating to the realist were seeing things as they are more objectively.  If you don't mind we both get to be right.  'nuff  said.

 

Now to prepare for my jewish female friend with her two children who is a blizzard away and planning to drive down to see me.  I told her I'd rather have her alive than driving through the blizzard.  No problem since her car got messed up today and is in the shop.

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Hjortur
1 hour ago, Troy said:

ON PRIVILEGE

 

DEFINITION: An advantage an individual or group holds with or without awareness over other systematically disenfranchised social groups. Typically, a privileged group or individual is that which is considered "normal" or "socially acceptable."

 

The subject of Privilege is a touchy subject and it came up as a priority Global Truth to explore in the deleted thread. It is really important to understand that Privilege is a GOOD THING. We want EVERYONE to get to that place. We envy and long for expanding our access to Privileges. Privilege does not automatically mean a bad thing or that someone has done something wrong. It is often called out when people are recklessly unaware of the power of their Privilege so it looks like a bad thing, but that's because there are two kinds of Privilege:

 

BLIND PRIVILEGE vs EMPOWERED PRIVILEGE

 

Blind Privilege is what gets called out. It gets called out because a person has no idea that he or she is talking or acting from a completely skewed view of reality that does not account for those with less Privilege. It is called out when someone with Privilege (intentionally or unintentionally) dismisses or adds to the struggle of others with little to no Privileges.

 

Empowered Privilege is when you own your position of Privilege and accept that is was no more your choice to be in this position of Privilege than it is for those with no Privileges. You are BORN into Privilege. Some Privilege can be gained in a life, but mostly you are born into it. You recognize this and do not feel guilty about your Privilege. You do not defend it or abuse it and if someone calls it out, you are right there to agree and understand and listen. You use your position of Privilege to help others or at the very least to NOT make life worse for those with no Privileges.

 

TLE is a huge mix of people born with and without Privileges. Let's take a look at the hierarchy of Privileges and see how many you can check off. This is not a comprehensive or nuanced list, but these tend to be the most obvious. These tend to be true across the planet (a Global Truth).

 

WHAT YOU SAY AND DO MATTERS

 

Calling out Privilege is not meant to shut you up. It is to remind you that what you say and do matters more than you may realize. The more you can check off from the list below, the more listening and learning and patience required of you in conversations about Equality, Rights, and Oppression. Because what you have to say matters and carries more weight than others, so you want to be much more mindful and considerate in what you say than you would normally expect of yourself. It may be a new feeling, but it is a good one once you shift into Empowered Privilege.

 

RIGHTS vs PRIVILEGES

 

Most of us who call out Privilege are still fighting for our Rights and trying to gain allies among the Privileged to help us. It is very difficult for anyone to have any Privilege when they have few or no Rights. So it is really important to understand that those of us who are fighting for our Rights have a very long way to go before we can even dream of the Privilege that many have.

 

PRIVILEGE vs HARDSHIPS

 

Being Privileged does not exempt or protect you from Hardships. There is a big difference between the discussion of Hardships and the discussion of Privileges. Everyone can suffer Hardships, even the Privileged. When Privilege is called out, it's not meant to say you do not suffer Hardships. But it is true that Privilege will tend to afford you more resources for navigating and responding to Hardships, though.

 

INTERSECTIONALITY

 

When reading this list, keep in mind INTERSECTIONALITY: This is how your Privileges are either stacked or countered. For example, I am male and white (Privileges) countered heavily by being Gay. Some may be an Intersection of all Privileges. Some may be an Intersection of all non-Privilege. Some may be a mix. Knowing where you are in your Intersectionality as compared to others can really help you to move toward Empowered Privilege.

 

PRIVILEGE CHECK LIST (in no particular order)

 

Male privilege: This form of privilege is manifested in individuals who identify as male and who were assigned male at birth living in a patriarchal society. Examples of male privilege include, but are not limited to, being able to walk home at night without fear of attack, having male-centric storylines vastly dominate all forms of media, and having greater employment benefits and opportunities than equally qualified female counterparts.

 

White privilege: Power in Western society has long been associated with being white. Historic discrimination and racism have deep roots in our society that propagate this disturbingly unequal distribution of power to this day. While examples of white privilege are clearly evident in all aspects of the mainstream media, a prominent example of white privilege in the media today regards police violence being directed towards people of color. White privilege is not having to fear for your life during every exchange with law enforcement.

 

Heterosexual privilege: This form of privilege is most obvious when considering the metaphorical closet in which all Queer identifying persons reside. Heterosexuality is almost always assumed of an individual and thus forces Queer to continually undergo the process of "coming out." The storylines of mainstream media programming focus aggressively on the relationships of heterosexual individuals and frequently also portray offensively stereotyped caricatures of Queer characters.

 

Gender identity privilege: This privilege is held by individuals whose gender identity matches that which they were assigned at birth (this is referred to as cisgender). It is rare to see the stories of non-gender conforming individuals told in the mainstream media and when they are it is all too common to see them mocked and suggested to be disgusting. The misrepresentation of non-gender conforming individuals in the media has been extreme and puts these individuals at a disadvantage to their cisgendered (or gender conforming) counterparts.

 

Religious privilege: To have religious privilege is to be a member of the religion that dominates a given culture. In Western society, this privilege is given to members of the Christian faith whose traditions are normalized and the tenets of other faiths are portrayed as radical, mystical, and are frequently rejected. An example of this in the media today is the portrayal of Islam as a violent and extreme faith that harbors only terrorists within its vast community of participants in the faith.

 

Social Class privilege: Social class is often closely linked with economic status in that those with greater financial resources find themselves in the social class with the most power. Class frequently determines the availability of opportunities in both education and vocation, and this leads to a system of self-perpetuation in giving those with greater resources greater social privileges, therefore, making it even harder for those of an outside class to break in.

 

Ability privilege: To have ability privilege is to be free of physical and mental disabilities with which many individuals struggle the entirety of their lives. Examples of ability privilege include being able to access any and all buildings regardless of their wheelchair capabilities, having minimal dietary restrictions and being able to choose from all options at restaurants, and being able to focus in certain settings without the help of medication.

This explanatory list appeals to me as a scholar! Privilege 101 for the beginner.

I needed this, thanks!

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Maxim [memorial profile]

What hot topic this is.

 

Though I'm not sure what the topic is...lol

 

@Troy On privilege. I confess to be like Mr. Magoo.  I walk about in my own daze saying what I do and hoping I don't hurt anyone along the way.  I'd love to add something to the mix but at this point in my life I know it is mostly for others to work out on this plane.  So forgive me for not engaging so passionately.  And goes for you too @Bobby.  To me it is all about intention.  If the intention is to love then love will find a way.  So I don't much worry what I say.

 

In my small world I thought for sure that bringing up the idea that this discussion was powered by different attitudes that we'd have a collective ah ha.  LOL.  You mean we didn't!!!!  Surely in another parallel.

 

Don't mind me as I show up now and then.  I mean no harm and love you all.  I'm looking for hugs, loving embraces and passionate groks.  When I die there is no place to go so in a sense we will still all be hanging out together.

 

Have fun.

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Troy
1 hour ago, Maxim said:

What hot topic this is.

 

Though I'm not sure what the topic is...lol

 

@Troy On privilege. I confess to be like Mr. Magoo.  I walk about in my own daze saying what I do and hoping I don't hurt anyone along the way.  I'd love to add something to the mix but at this point in my life I know it is mostly for others to work out on this plane.  So forgive me for not engaging so passionately.  And goes for you too @Bobby.  To me it is all about intention.  If the intention is to love then love will find a way.  So I don't much worry what I say.

 

In my small world I thought for sure that bringing up the idea that this discussion was powered by different attitudes that we'd have a collective ah ha.  LOL.  You mean we didn't!!!!  Surely in another parallel.

 

Don't mind me as I show up now and then.  I mean no harm and love you all.  I'm looking for hugs, loving embraces and passionate groks.  When I die there is no place to go so in a sense we will still all be hanging out together.

 

Have fun.

 

Re: THE TOPIC - The Topic is Healing a Sickness in the Community, "sickness" meaning our being driven to high conflict and division from our wounding being triggered. More specifically, it's an intentional space for conversation to help us sort out our feelings (what we can learn about ourselves) from the truth (what we can learn about each other) and bring those back into the harmony this community so actively nurtures. 

 

RE: PRIVILEGE - Most people do walk around like Mr. Magoo and say and do what they want, relying entirely on chance as to whether it hurts someone or not. That's why Privilege is finally getting some footing and raising people awareness. The concept of Privilege might seem moot if you cross paths with very few people or only engage with people who are similar to you, but for people who want to help, or who engage with a variety of people from all Classes and Races and Gender and Sexuality and Religion and Bodies, or if you just give a damn... understanding Privilege is a Golden Key to being united! 

 

RE: ATTITUDES: And your idea about the Attitudes was only about 2 hours ago (at this moment), so give people time to catch up and reply before presuming what they think and feel. I thought it was a great suggestion to consider Attitudes. When I read it, I wanted to think about it. I could write a whole piece on it!

 

I'm an Idealist (not Realist) so I am far from Objective, LOL, though working with Michael has helped me in that regard. As an Idealist, I'm always looking for ways to improve relationships, life, and myself. As a Spiritualist, you may always be looking for the spirit of relationships, life, and yourself. These can work really well together!

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Troy

Just a quick mooshy hug of love to @Hjortur for sticking through this. It wasn't easy. In this conversation, especially for you. And even if I had not a single moment of intention to hurt your feelings, I am very sorry if you ever felt for a second that you aren't welcome here or that your input or concerns are dismissed. Some subjects may trigger some much-needed learning and loving, but if we stick through it, we eventually hear each other. You have made it clear that you heard everyone giving you feedback, but I forgot to tell you that I hear you, too. 

 

What is coming out of your original post may turn out to be one of the best ways we could have started out 2018 because we are looking at how we can balance the wounding that we carry and the intense passion we have for protecting ourselves and each other.

 

We have more to learn and do, but I just felt it important to thank you, not only for sticking around but for your heart. Big hugs to you.

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Janet H

This article about Sarah Silverman seems pertinent here as a model. And I think it's resonant with how @Hjorturparticipated here and with the whole topic being explored. I did not see the initial thread but appreciate the discussion that is happening in response to it.

 

Evidently she was trolled on Twitter and responded with love and compassion, which led to an amazing outcome.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/blog/sarah-silverman-s-response-to-a-twitter-troll-is-a-master-class-in-compassion-1.4471337

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DianeHB
8 hours ago, Troy said:

 

Okay, I see what you mean. 

 

I think there is a difference between the persistent effort to get a point across that we hope will create that common ground of understanding vs just satisfying the ego's need to be "right." I saw some people trying to get a point across to help create a common ground of understanding and others demanding compliance, concession, and apologies. To me, the latter is more concerned with being "right." 

 

I agree that everyone had feelings triggered. I always knew that. That's natural. I had a LOT of feelings! lol How we take responsibility for those feelings is what makes the difference.

 

Just to add to the conversation about attitudes since I had also been thinking about it today. I think your Idealism thinks that if you just say enough things, they'll see it your way and come around. My Pragmatism will try to debate my point 2-3 times, then decide that this is fucking inefficient, so sayonara. ?

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Maxim [memorial profile]

@Troy  What I wrote was... you are gravitating toward realist.

 

What I could have written was... I know you are an idealist but it appears you are gravitating toward realist.

 

I thought you would get it since we can all be affected by each of the attitudes.  I also knew what the topic was but thought I was being funny when I said I didn't know what it was.

 

Way more on this discussion than I want to deal with.  Nothing that wouldn't be cured by a walk in the woods.  Would love to take a walk in these snowy woods.  Even have a snow ball fight.  So glad I got to meet you in Seattle.  I believe gathering in person would take care a lot of these issues, even as it creates other ones;))))

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Maxim [memorial profile]

Speaking of the not privileged I may qualify.  White heterosexual male who is dying.  I would think that would get me into the club of the not so privileged.  However, from my point of view it is quite a privilege.  I feel more alive most of the time, lucid, clear, liberated, truthful, playful, myself than I was before.  Something worth shooting for. 

 

I thought that was a funny piece of irony.  I hope it doesn't offend anyone.

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Bobby
40 minutes ago, Maxim said:

Speaking of the not privileged I may qualify.  White heterosexual male who is dying.  I would think that would get me into the club of the not so privileged.  However, from my point of view it is quite a privilege.  I feel more alive most of the time, lucid, clear, liberated, truthful, playful, myself than I was before.  Something worth shooting for. 

 

I thought that was a funny piece of irony.  I hope it doesn't offend anyone.

 

@Maxim take this as some friendly morbid teasing, please.  As an interesting statistic, there are about 120,000 people per day that die on the planet.  When your time comes, it's going to be a busy place between all the comings and the goings!  Of course, that doesn't take away from the very personal experience of each.  Sounds like you may have settled into Acceptance with your situation which is a nice place to be.

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Maxim [memorial profile]

Like a subway at rush hour.  Getting on let alone finding a seat.  Not even if you pay in advance can you get a luxury lift.  Or is a better metaphor a vacuum cleaner.

 

Yes, at least acceptance, vivid acceptance.  I don't know where that is on 6th IM.  I'll have to look that up.

 

 

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Troy
3 hours ago, Maxim said:

Speaking of the not privileged I may qualify.  White heterosexual male who is dying.  I would think that would get me into the club of the not so privileged.  However, from my point of view it is quite a privilege.  I feel more alive most of the time, lucid, clear, liberated, truthful, playful, myself than I was before.  Something worth shooting for. 

 

I thought that was a funny piece of irony.  I hope it doesn't offend anyone.

 

As Older Souls, we can all appreciate the morbid and ironic humor.  I I appreciate what your humor. Your position in life/death right now is beautiful and terrifying. Accepting our deaths is such a unique and personal and confusing and horrifying and wondrous thing to me. I've had two brushes with it in this life and currently live with a terminal diagnosis. I deal with dead people all day long and live with one foot in life and death, but it's all still a huge bizarre mystery to me! lol

 

On a side note: I know you were kidding, so forgive my party pooper interjection. I have to point out that people who are suffering from systemic oppression, inequality, violence, institutionalized hate, and suffering are not in some kind of elite Club that the Privileged should envy. I know you were joking, but this is the kind of mockery that they face all the time and it undermines their lives even further. I know you were joking, but I wanted to interject this consideration.

 

Dying is not unique to anyone or any group, so it is neither a privilege or non-privilege, but it is true that the more privileged you are, the longer you tend to live by virtue of access to greater resources. And dying does not suddenly erase an entire life that was lived in privilege or non-privilege. But no matter our lot in life, we can always find ways to appreciate and care for each other and embrace the best parts of our lives.

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Troy
17 hours ago, Janet H said:

This article about Sarah Silverman seems pertinent here as a model. And I think it's resonant with how @Hjorturparticipated here and with the whole topic being explored. I did not see the initial thread but appreciate the discussion that is happening in response to it.

 

Evidently she was trolled on Twitter and responded with love and compassion, which led to an amazing outcome.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/blog/sarah-silverman-s-response-to-a-twitter-troll-is-a-master-class-in-compassion-1.4471337

 

This is an excellent example of how a person with high levels of Privilege can shift away from Blind Privilege and into Empowered Privilege.

 

I watch her series on Hulu called "I Love America" and her premise is to help create a bridge between the Privileged and Oppressed. She knows there is a difference between her position and someone who is not in her position. She doesn't expect the oppressed to be able to do what she does, so she steps up to do what would be impossible for someone not in her position. She understands that it is nearly impossible for the oppressed to do what she can do. Her celebrity and resources afford her the privilege to have these conversations in a way that others could never have them. She knows that she has a better chance of being heard when others will never be heard. She knows that she can more easily create common ground. So she does.

 

She has her intersections of non-privilege (raised Jewish, is an Atheist, and a woman), but she uses her intersections of Privilege (white, wealthy, celebrity, educated, etc) and steps up to make a difference.

 

She's a perfect model for anyone with a good amount of Privilege that can be leveraged as Empowered Privilege. 

 

Thanks for sharing this!

 

Her opening song to the first episode of her series is brilliant!!

 

 

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Jeroen
20 hours ago, Janet H said:

This article about Sarah Silverman seems pertinent here as a model. And I think it's resonant with how @Hjorturparticipated here and with the whole topic being explored. I did not see the initial thread but appreciate the discussion that is happening in response to it.

 

Evidently she was trolled on Twitter and responded with love and compassion, which led to an amazing outcome.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/blog/sarah-silverman-s-response-to-a-twitter-troll-is-a-master-class-in-compassion-1.4471337

 

Thanks for sharing this beautiful story. It is amazing how kind, loving, and compassionate some people are to others who need help and are hurting. I read in another article that Sarah has now offered to pay for his medical treatment and he in turn is donating money raised to others needing help.

 

https://www.mysanantonio.com/lifestyle/article/S-A-man-who-once-trolled-Sarah-Silverman-now-12471548.php#photo-14787255

 

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Maxim [memorial profile]

Nice to see love and compassion find its way in this conversation.  I wouldn't say it was worth the pain but that pain (and compassion) was part of the process of getting here.

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Troy
46 minutes ago, Maxim said:

Nice to see love and compassion find its way in this conversation.  I wouldn't say it was worth the pain but that pain (and compassion) was part of the process of getting here.

 

One of the most comforting things in life for me is to count on people who fall into Conflict to work through it and learn from it. Conflict is a poor indicator of whether Love and Compassion are involved. The greatest Loves of your life and the greatest sources of Compassion in your life have probably seen Conflict.

 

The more we learn about Love, the more we can see that love and compassion when we thought it was missing. That really helps when we are feeling overwhelmed in a messy conversation like the deleted thread. We tend to think that Love and Compassion are pretty things that are wrapped in pleasant packaging. Compassion and Love get a really bad rap because of clever corporate marketing and corny new age belief systems. But Compassion takes work and can really leave us raw on both the giving and receiving end. And True Love is inclusive and allows room for our bumbling efforts and mistakes and misunderstanding. Compassion and Love are not always pretty and pleasant.

 

I propose that Love and Compassion were already present in both the deleted thread and in this current thread. In the deleted thread, I saw a lack of common ground or lack of common goal but everyone seemed driven by some angle of compassion and love. We just had different groups of people we were hoping to help. And this current conversation was born from an effort to nurture love and compassion when I started it and I haven't seen it stray from that.

 

I'm glad you are seeing the love and compassion, but I bet it was always already here.

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