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DISCUSSION: Healing a Sickness in Our Community

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Nadine

We're also entering Dominance through the Negative Pole right now. That certainly did not help us to stay open to the viewpoints and arguments of others....

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KurtisM
6 minutes ago, Nadine said:

We're also entering Dominance through the Negative Pole right now. That certainly did not help us to stay open to the viewpoints and arguments of others....

Not to mention Dominance is above all, pained on all levels by any notion of failure.

Actually now that you mention it, maybe we should bring the stages of each goal back to light again to help us see its patterns.

 

For Dominance:

Chaos <(-DICTATORSHIP)> Distrust // Aim for Embodiment // Worth <(+LEADERSHIP)> Order

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Hjortur

@AnnaD here is a rewrite of my previous Blog posting:

The Ring of Destruction:
Insecurity breeds fear, fear breeds hate, hate breeds violence, violence breeds destruction and then the circle repeats. Trying to break the circle with any of its components increases its momentum.

This ring can only be dissolved by the use of compassion. Using compassion is by no means, laying down your fight for justice or equal rights.  It involves neither understanding the perpetrators arguments nor sympathising with their views. Compassion is not a weakness but the ultimate strength. Compassion is not giving the power to the wrongdoers of this world. Compassion is a powerful searchlight illuminating the wrongdoers and putting them into their true context for all to see.


The above was basically what I was trying to say in what became a toxic infected thread in my blog.

That, which happened, was never my intention. In retrospect it was very careless of me, how I chose my words. The fear, I spoke out about was real, but as perceived from myself. I felt fear because I was terrified. When opposed, I as so many others in this infected thread, let my insecurities run wild, even when trying to contain myself. I was simply blinded by my emotions.

During this blindness, I said things to you @Troy, that I never should have said and you have my most deep and humble apologizes for that!

You see, my fears were really all about the safe haven that Troy was trying to create. Somehow his efforts were interpreted by me as the opposite, letting politics and all the unpleasantness into what I perceived as being part of the “other side”. In this “other-side”, you could relax and get a higher view of the unpleasantness of this world, kind of basking in the idea of you as an old soul in others enlightened company. The enlightened bit was just missing from my part of the equation.  

This is not how I want to think about myself in relation to The Michael Teachings.

 

I am truly thankful of still being here despite all.

Edited by Hjortur
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Bobby

Since, in this community, I consider us to be sitting at the grownups table and not at the kids table, consider the following from Orin and DaBen:

 

When someone does something you do not like, open your heart before you speak. If you choose to make a statement, state what you feel about the situation, rather than blame for something they did to you. You can say, "I feel hurt," rather than "YOU hurt me." A powerful way to state it is, "I am CHOOSING to feel hurt,” for every feeling you have is one you have chosen.

 

I think it speaks to what Michael says about feelings not being the truth.  There are times where we're going to feel slighted, sure.  But if you're waiting or demanding an apology then I would have to ask: Are you doing the work that you came here to do? The long awaited day that you're waiting for the apology may never come and then what?  Are you going to go around the rest of your life upset?  

 

Bringing it back to Michael, how does that fit into the idea of Acceptance?  It feels so much better to just let that go and realize that there is so much more you enjoy about the person or about the community than you feel slighted by in the moment.  Otherwise, if it were a systemic issue, I doubt you'd be here in the first place.

 

And let's not forget, no one here, NO ONE, is without their imperfections.  That can be an eye opener when that realization smacks you upside the head(been there done that) but if you are still wrestling with the idea of expectations of others beyond that which you impose upon yourself then you may be unfairly asking too much.  

 

We ALL have bad days, negative poles, Chief Features, Egos, etc.  Were you expecting otherwise?  And if not, then why are your actions not reflecting the truth of this?  Why the inconsistency?  The answer always starts with ourselves.  We are the only thing/anyone that we have any control over.  The bottom line of this teaching is:  WE HAVE A CHOICE.   What are you choosing?  Is it to be right or is it to be whole?

 

All healing begins with ourselves.

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Troy

STORY TIME

 

I've put a lot of thought and heart into trying to figure out how and why the infamous deleted thread went so terribly awry among people who are genuinely kind, caring, and compassionate. All of us were calling out for the same things, so it's just a fact that all of us cared deeply on some level about what we were speaking up about.

 

So I offer up this little parable that I wrote that is as no-fault an exploration of why and how things went awry in that thread as I can get. It is exaggerated for the sake of emphasizing a point, so please read it as a parable, not as a parallel event. And read it playfully with insight and consideration, not as an indictment or insult.

 

I'm writing this to help bring compassionate understanding for those who thought that I and a few others were just being crazy and aggressive and hostile and unfair. I'm not writing this for just us on TLE. I'm writing this for all of the people in the world who fight the good fight but have that fight made more difficult by good people in their lives. It's a crappy story and not well-written, but I hope it helps.

 

By the way, this is not for Hjortur. He willingly and beautifully accepted that there may be more around the corner... (and I profoundly thank you for that, @Hjortur) <<and I'm very sorry for dismissing in anger your revelation in the other thread - I am very happy to have another ally))

 

THE CORNERS OF LIFE - a parable

 

So... one day you walk around the corner just in time to see a woman viciously kick a man in the balls. You have never been around that corner before, but you happened to be walking that way today. And you are shocked by what you see!

 

When you are asked about what you saw, you describe what you saw: A woman attacking a man. It was vicious. You know what you saw and what you describe is entirely accurate and fair. This woman attacked a man!

 

You may even go so far as to feel bad for the man and think the woman was crazy. You might have run over to the man and helped him to his feet and pushed the woman into the wall to protect the man. Or maybe wished that you had. 

 

Everything you describe was true to what you saw and you are not wrong for that.

 

But what you missed was the entire struggle that happened before you came around the corner when the man was assaulting the woman and trying to rape her. You never saw any of this and in all of the commotion, it was never brought to your attention. You go about your life thinking this woman was fucking crazy and vicious to an innocent man. That's that.

 

So weeks pass and you see an article describing women as crazy and vicious and he calls for women to behave more civilly and compassionately. He pleas with women to make life easier for men and asks them to not live in such fear and judgment of men. He describes halfway houses and support groups for women as bastions of fear and judgment. He just wants everyone to get along. If only women would stop being so awful to men. If only women would try to see men as their equals. He goes on to describe how women threw his life into turmoil and how he is only barely recovering from it. Women are to blame for this. It is a heartfelt plea for peace and compassion.

 

You read this article and think it is awesome. Someone is innocently calling out for compassion. You are totally on board. You saw with your own two eyes a woman attack a man so it all makes sense to you.

 

And then, out of nowhere, you see someone comment "pull your head out of your ass!"

 

Gasp!! WTF WHAT?? Where did THAT come from!?

 

Others chime in and try to explain that women are often the victims of assault and violence from men and that to condemn or blame them for fighting back reveals that the author does not understand the whole picture. What he said is hurtful and insulting.

 

Wait, what? You have never seen that! You actually saw a woman attack a man! These voices speaking up for women are just another kind of attack. Women are just fine! And all this man is doing is calling for compassion!

 

They try to explain that women are not actually vicious and fearful.

 

Wait, what?? You saw with your own two eyes that women can be vicious and fearful! And you can see it already again in these comments against this compassionate man!

 

They try to explain that halfway houses and support groups for women who survive assault are not bastions of fear and judgment against men. Creating a safe space for women should not be considered an insult to men or to be anti-men.

 

Wait, what? Please... If they aren't bastions of fear and judgment against men, then why aren't all men allowed to join them, too! Give me a break!

 

They try to explain that when a woman defends herself against rape, she is not being fearful or judgmental. She is empowering herself. She is in a fight for her life.

 

Wait, what?! You saw a woman kick a man in the balls. She seemed just fine taking care of herself. Women just need to calm down and learn something from the compassion of this man!

 

They try to explain that the truth is more than what you saw. They try to explain that the truth is more than what you see.  

 

Wait, what??? But you saw what you saw!! You already know the whole truth!

 

Well, that does it... this man needs your help. He is clearly innocent and only trying to call out for compassion and being attacked by these troublemakers. You feel compelled to step in and put these women in their place! They need to learn a thing or two from you because you saw what you saw and that is the only truth necessary for them to free themselves from their pitiful and angry lives of fear.

 

And so it goes...

 

The world is full of corners that you may or may not see or go around. Not by any fault of your own, but by virtue of your path in life and what needs your attention in your life. But there are truths that are bigger than what we can or will see. There are many corners in life that you may not go around, or you may come around too late to see the whole picture.

 

The world is divided by people who have never seen the whole picture around the corner by virtue of timing or their path in life, and people who have been or see around the corner. And many live around those corners.

 

So now you have people desperately and constantly (and sometimes aggressively and with frustration) trying to tell others what it is like to live around the corner where many may never have seen, and we have people yelling back that it doesn't matter what happens around the corner, it only matters what they have seen or what they can see.

 

That glorious and infamous deleted thread offered up a choice... just like life does all of the time: 

 

A) give yourself a chance to see around the corners of life that you may never ever see and listen carefully and kindly to the desperate and frustrated (and aggressive) voices of those who are constantly told that these corners do not exist...

 

OR

 

B) or pile on and put these people in their place for causing a commotion, for even suggesting that there is more to life than what you can see, school them on how your life is just fine on your side of the street, convince them that there are no corners in life, or that they should just stop going around corners... and demand that if they are going to talk such crazy talk, they should at least do it calmly and rationally so as not to disturb those who are asleep.

 

We may never live or see or be around the many corners of life and by no fault of our own, but we have to accept and understand and listen to the truths that are bigger than the paths of our personal and private lives. This goes both ways, but this is particularly important for those who are not in danger, not targeted, not affected by oppression, hate, violence, sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. The less affected you are by these things, the more listening and learning is in order when others speak up about these things (and yes, however "aggressively" they speak up about these things - it only looks like aggression to those who are unaffected).  Step back and *really* listen and learn when you would rather be scolding and schooling. Just try that for a while and see if it makes a difference. It can take a while, but there will come a moment when you make the connection and you become an ally for true peace and equality, not just a champion for politeness and courtesy.

 

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Janet

I'm going to make only one comment about the original thread in hopes that it may be helpful. 

 

On Monday, I took the time to summarize for myself ALL the posts in that thread. It took a long time! This was at the time the whole thread was removed, and some of my summary was completed from the remaining admin copy, so I know I got everything that existed at the time.

 

In my summary, the timing of some posts was somewhat inexplicable to me, and others may feel that way too. 

 

However, I'm also aware from my work that there were a number of posts that were removed or edited during the course of the conversation. Sometimes the removal/editing happened very quickly, and sometimes much later. There are traces of these posts in the responses of others, and I remember reading some original posts that I could no longer find when I did my summary. I believe there were potentially some private conversations going on as well. 

 

I believe that the apparently strange timing of some posts is due to one or more triggering events that may not have been visible to many, or visible for very long. 

 

I urge everyone to consider that what you saw or felt about that thread was not the full story. It was only your piece of the story. That does not make your perspective incorrect but maybe your perspective is incomplete. It will all get ironed out in the long run. At some point we WILL know EVERYTHING that happened, but it may be long after our deaths. 

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AnnaD

@Hjortur,  thank you for making that not offensive, and very clear. What you have written I agree with. I realise you understand now that living as a vulnerable person in Trump's America it is very difficult to keep the fear TLE Americans might feel, out of, TLE. The Trump effect is what has maximised bigotry and fear throughout the US and it comes into TLE more often than not because Trump dislikes anyone not in the priveleged demographics. thank you thank you thank you for understanding that, and having the kindness to make that clear here. 

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AnnaD

@Troy thank you ? Thanks for putting the situation in a new context with new variables but revealing same outcomes. You are not a Sage for nothing.

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Nadine

That parable is wonderful, Troy! I completely agree with everything you wrote.

 

Just one little food for thought: You turn around the corner and see a woman attacking a man. And you think: this man has most certainly tried to attack or rape her, it happens all the time! You know that it happens all the time, you have seen it happen. You know people who are deeply traumatized by it. And you care. So you walk up that man and shout at him: "Pull your head out of you ass!" But what happened is that this man bumped into her in the dark without any intention of hurting her. He just didn't look where he was walking because he was looking at his phone and by not beim aware of what he was doing, bumped into her. She, with all the knowledge and experience she had with men, immediately tried to protect herself and kicked the dude in the balls. Understandable she did it, right? Absolutely. Was the kick in the nuts necessary? Absolutely not. Next time around, he'll hopefully watch where he walks (in fact, I do know men that change the side of the road at night when they see a woman approaching  just to make her feel safe). But it's also important to remember that this guy is not a rapist or an abuser because he bumped into her.

 

Please understand I am not writing this to undermine what you wrote, not at all. Like I said, I completely agree with everything you wrote. The corners are real. They need to be addressed. The oppression is real. It needs to be addressed. The violence is real. It needs to be adressed. The parable you wrote is something that happens everyday to a buckload of marginalized groups of people and it needs to stop. But it still doesn't take away our own responsability (being part of a marginalized group of people) to try to act instead of reacting. Sometimes kicking someone in the nuts is necessary. But if we manage to do so in the heat of the moment, we should choose to quickly check if that's the best action to take at that moment.

 

 

Edited by Nadine
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Troy
1 hour ago, Nadine said:

Please understand I am not writing this to undermine what you wrote, not at all. Like I said, I completely agree with everything you wrote. The corners are real. They need to be addressed. The oppression is real. It needs to be addressed. The violence is real. It needs to be adressed. The parable you wrote is something that happens everyday to a buckload of marginalized groups of people and it needs to stop. But it still doesn't take away our own responsability (being part of a marginalized group of people) to try to act instead of reacting. Sometimes kicking someone in the nuts is necessary. But if we manage to do so in the heat of the moment, we should choose to quickly check if that's the best action to take at that moment.

4

 

Thank you for that. I understand what you are saying because your parable is basically the same as mine with the same point. The point I feel we share is that we should always step back and consider the bigger picture. 

 

I would like to lovingly note that what you describe and experience as "reactions" may be actions that you just do not relate to or understand, especially when it comes to speaking up for and standing for a Cause that may not be as important or relevant to you. Sometimes when people speak up for or act on behalf of a Cause, those who are unaffected will see those actions as extreme, unnecessary, and reactionary. It's a classic method of deflection.

 

We see it all the time in variations like when people say that if Black people would just be civil, or obey the law and not argue with a police officer or not "riot" in the streets, then they might not have been killed. Or if gay people would "just not shove it down our throats," or "make everything gay." Instead of addressing the issues, this deflection forces everyone to get lost in arguing about how better to package and present grievances. 

 

In the deleted thread, some of us were asking (in various tones) that Hjortur take a closer look at the bigger picture so he could understand the choice I made on behalf of TLE and why I did it and why so many supported that choice, instead of leaving him with the assumption that we did it only out of fear and judgment. He had described our fear and judgement as having a serious impact on his spirit that affected him deeply. From his perspective, this made perfect sense because his life is very very different from mine and others like me. Students were speaking up not only for the sake of the bigger picture, but also to help Hjortur move away from these devastating assumptions. It broke my heart that TLE would be a reason for someone's personal turmoil.

 

For better or worse, it worked. He heard us.  Not because of *how* we said anything. He heard us because of his own effort to listen, regardless of how something was said.

 

*potential trigger warning*

 

Blind Privilege demands others to speak in your pre-approved and familiar language and tone because Blind Privilege loves things to be packaged neatly and orderly and calmly. But the first step Hjortur took in breaking through that blind spot of privilege was to really take a look at *what* was being said, and forgive *how* it was being said. Whether he should or should not have had to do that is moot, and making that effort to hear the truth is a very small price to pay for a breakthrough and healing.

 

No matter how poorly or successfully (or reactionary) someone is in their standing up for a Cause, the ones who make the effort to listen are the ones who make all of the difference.

 

Yes, how things are said does make a difference, but sometimes making it all about how things are said is just a way to keep people from being heard. Certain Causes aren't afforded the luxury of neat packaging from everyone across the board and there have been very few revolutions that could conform to the demands of being polite and courteous and packaged neatly.

 

And make no mistake... even little things like this event on TLE are a part of a revolution.

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Nadine
11 minutes ago, Troy said:

I would like to lovingly note that what you describe and experience as "reactions" may be actions that you just do not relate to or understand, especially when it comes to speaking up for and standing for a Cause that may not be as important or relevant to you. Sometimes when people speak up for or act on behalf of a Cause, those who are unaffected will see those actions as extreme, unnecessary, and reactionary. It's a classic method of deflection.

 

Thank you, @Troy, for taking the time to answer so thoroughly. 

 

I understand where you are getting at with your point. I understand where you are coming from. Just to make it clear: I have myself been accused of having acted extreme, unnescessary and reactionary. And of course it were topics that were important to me. Would you have been in my situation, you would have maybe reacted much calmer and more patiently, because you were never affected by what I had to go through. That does not mean, that my cause is not important to you. That would be an unfounded assumption of mine. It also doesn't mean I refuse to notice when I get overzealous with my cause. And just because you might notice it too, doesn't mean you're methodically trying to deflect. It's human, that's all. 

 

I can hear the hurt behind the aggressiveness, have compassion for it and still suggest a less triggered way of acting. That's something I try to do myself when I catch myself getting riled up because of any Cause I'm standing up for and that's something I suggest others. Never have been a big fan of the biblical "eye for an eye". It does not mean I don't care. It does not mean the Cause you're so passionately and sometimes belligerently fighting for is not important to me. I'm here with you, as I hope you are with me. 

 

I don't think my position is in any way taking anything away from your position, Troy. It only adds to it. 

 

With all the head butting, still wanted to let you know: I love you. :)

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Nadine
30 minutes ago, Troy said:

No matter how poorly or successfully (or reactionary) someone is in their standing up for a Cause, the ones who make the effort to listen are the ones who make all of the difference.

 

Just noticed this, and maybe that's a contributing factor: I usually try to keep my focus on what I could have done different when a discussion (or anything else really) goes off the rail. I focus on myself, not the other party, because I can't change them. I can't better them, but I can better myself. Like I said, I have catched myself a shitload of times getting just as belligerent about topics that are important to me and I really dislike when I do it. It never helped having a fruitful dialogue. Not once. It only ever escalated the situation. So when I'm suggesting to acknowledge one's own aggressiveness, it's because I have made this experience firsthand.You can't force someone to listen by being aggressive, but you can do your best to keep them open to making the effort to listen. And then they do and that makes all of the difference. :) 

 

It does not mean I don't leave room for the anger, it does not mean I don't understand it or don't have compassion for it (including my own anger about such topics). It just means I think there's some room for improvement. Nobody's perfect.

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Joanne

Hi, finally, to all TLE members!


I was introduced to the Teachings and to the site by an in-law.  I have been extremely thankful and grateful to this individual and they know it!  It is because of this in-law relationship that I have chosen to be a quiet member on the site so as not to step into their territory even though they have said, repeatedly, "I have ZERO problem with it if I was inclined to do so."  In the midst of the deleted thread and this thread I feel inclined to do so now.

 

Let me begin by saying that I live on Long Island in New York.  I am approximately an hour away from where Troy lives without any traffic, but there is never not any traffic! LOL!  This TRUMP EFFECT that Troy talks about is something that I have witnessed now for more than two years.  It is real!  It is ugly!  It is pervasive!  

 

Despite being white and raised as a catholic (even though I choose not to be now) I do have one strike against me; I am a female!  As a result of being a female in this Trump era, I am finding myself in situations that I have NEVER had to defend myself in EVER!  I have been chastised not only by the husbands of my closest friends, but by my husband as well.

 

EXAMPLE 1:  My friends husband had the audacity to continuously come after me because I commented that "I would not mind paying more in taxes so everyone  would be able to have health insurance!"  KILL ME!!!  I was reprimanded in front of my friends, and my husband, with him pounding his fists on the table while standing and yelling at me "YOU DON'T PAY ANY TAXES!"  Needless to say, my Warrior Casting came in handy as I told him to "BACK IT UP and SIT THE FUCK DOWN!"  Even though I had, and still have no problem standing up for myself, not one person sitting at that table called him out on his SHIT!  Not even my husband!  

 

EXAMPLE 2:  While enjoying a Sunday at the beach and participating with my husband, my cousin and her husband in a heated discussion relating to my opinion about the passenger that was dragged off the plane unconscious I was called out by an asshole Trump supporter who was sitting behind us.  He said and I quote "I suppose you like Hillary too!"  WTF!!!  SERIOUSLY!!!  MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS!!!  My reply to this DEPLORABLE being was " No, I just like people who are nice!"  Regardless of the answer I gave him, he continued his rhetoric by walking over to my cousins husband and trying to infect the conversation even more.  Thankfully, my cousins husband blew him off and he finally got the message and left!  Again, my husband was silent!

 

EXAMPLE 3:  I have been referred to as a bleeding heart liberal by my husband on more than one occasion lately!!  It has been eye opening, to say the least, to realize after 36 years of marriage that my husband and I are on opposite sides of the aisle!  I hope our marriage can withstand the TOXIC TRUMP EFFECT!!!  My patience with him is starting to wane.    

 

Contrary to everything stated above I, somehow being female and not paying any taxes, was able to put twin girls through college at the same time w/o going bankrupt, learned and dabbled a little bit in the stock market which helped US to purchase the house we are living in now, continue to have an excellent credit score year after year (I am the only one paying the bills, so I guess I can take credit for that too) and I will probably be making all the decisions about my husbands retirement within the next year or two.

 

Due to this TRUMP EFFECT I have found it, sadly, necessary to defend myself and my capabilities as a mother, as a wife and as a female!  I stand up against this EFFECT because I am a MOTHER who has raised 2 DAUGHTERS that will, l hope by my actions, refuse to be treated by anyone with such disrespectful words and actions!!!  FYI:  The husband in EXAMPLE 1 has 2 daughters!!  I guess I stood up for them too!!  Go me!!  

             

Troy, you wrote a beautiful story, and you created this beautiful site!!  Don't let any of this take the wind out of your sails!!  I am not here to take sides!!  That is what this TRUMP EFFECT tries to do, hence why it is so toxic! 

 

Now, as I hope I haven't offended my in-law too much, I will end this by saying hang in there to all who feel this TOXIC TRUMP EFFECT, and continue to stand up and make a difference!!!  Make your voices heard!!!  I better stop!! I've gone on way to long for a first blog entry!!!  LOL 

 

 

       

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Maxim [memorial profile]

One thing I've noticed in this discussion is  this idea that certain people because of who they are have experienced different (painful) things than others. EG, if you are gay then you get ridiculed or mistreated.  And that this is not understood by those who are not in that category.  Maybe.  Maybe there are different ways to respond to that treatment such as taking it all very painfully and living with that pain and telling others about it.  Another way is to walk away and create a life that doesn't reflect that pain.  And yet another is to fight back and go after those who do the mistreating.    For an old soul the choices would seem to be a greater than a younger soul.  While I do not agree with any mistreatment that goes from genital mutilation to food shortages and believe something should be done about it, I also see there is choice involved by those who are affected.  Since this is an old soul community I wonder how much choice is available to those who feel mistreated in any way. My sense is that some are not owning their ability to make choices.  I realize when you are in pain the idea of choice is often far from your awareness.  I am happy to be corrected in my thinking.

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DianeHB

I pretty much agree with Nadine. No matter how "right" one is, once the conversation gets to a point where both sides are insisting on their rightness and no longer listening, it's time to step back and take a time out. When we get triggered into defense mode, it is nearly impossible to change our minds in the heat of the moment. I think this is actually physiological and not psychological. I've learned from past experience that by backing out of a heated conversation and rethinking it once I've calmed down, I'm able to hear the other person's perspective better and decide what I have to learn from the situation. 

 

I think that when a discussion gets to the point that it did, the choice become not who is "more right", but how far are you willing to push it to prove your point? And is it worth it? 

 

Edited by DianeHB
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NickG
3 minutes ago, DianeHB said:

I pretty much agree with Nadine. No matter how "right" one is, once the conversation gets to a point where both sides are insisting on their rightness and no longer listening, it's time to step back and take a time out. When we get triggered into defense mode, it is nearly impossible to change our minds in the heat of the moment. I think this is actually physiological and not psychological. I've learned from past experience that by backing out of a heated conversation and rethinking it once I've calmed down, I'm able to hear the other person's perspective better and decide what I have to learn from the situation. 

 

I think that when a discussion gets to the point that it did, the choice became not who is  "more right", but how far are you willing to push it to prove your point? And is it worth it? 

 

This! I was trying to find how to put it into words but this is exactly what I was thinking and feeling the entire time during that thread. Thank you Diane!

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Maxim [memorial profile]

I ran across this video on narcissism.  I do not suggest anyone on TLE is a narcissist.  The idea of the video is to explain how one can disengage from a narcissist.  Seems that the idea applies to anyone.  How to disengage or as we might say, how to be unattached.  See if any of these ideas make you feel freer in your discussion.

 

 

The phrase I use which I learned from Bashar is "If you say so."

 

Good luck.

 

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Hjortur
16 hours ago, AnnaD said:

@Hjortur,  thank you for making that not offensive, and very clear. What you have written I agree with. I realise you understand now that living as a vulnerable person in Trump's America it is very difficult to keep the fear TLE Americans might feel, out of, TLE. The Trump effect is what has maximised bigotry and fear throughout the US and it comes into TLE more often than not because Trump dislikes anyone not in the priveleged demographics. thank you thank you thank you for understanding that, and having the kindness to make that clear here. 

Thank You! It is an immense learning experience, still permeating my thoughts. Reading through @Troy parabel, put it into still more perspective. I get the feeling from my dream emotions, that some of "my" previous lives are aiding my understanding. These last days, many of my friends and family have reacted to me staring empty faced out into the thin air or suddenly with severe intensity into their faces. I feel a cascade of layered emotions. In some layers, feeling the terror of being trapped in an impossible situation, subdued and belittled. In others, privileged, free to roam within my sphere of social and family influence. Often these emotional states exist simultaneously.

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Hjortur
16 hours ago, Joanne said:

Hi, finally, to all TLE members!


I was introduced to the Teachings and to the site by an in-law.  I have been extremely thankful and grateful to this individual and they know it!  It is because of this in-law relationship that I have chosen to be a quiet member on the site so as not to step into their territory even though they have said, repeatedly, "I have ZERO problem with it if I was inclined to do so."  In the midst of the deleted thread and this thread I feel inclined to do so now.

 

Let me begin by saying that I live on Long Island in New York.  I am approximately an hour away from where Troy lives without any traffic, but there is never not any traffic! LOL!  This TRUMP EFFECT that Troy talks about is something that I have witnessed now for more than two years.  It is real!  It is ugly!  It is pervasive!  

 

Despite being white and raised as a catholic (even though I choose not to be now) I do have one strike against me; I am a female!  As a result of being a female in this Trump era, I am finding myself in situations that I have NEVER had to defend myself in EVER!  I have been chastised not only by the husbands of my closest friends, but by my husband as well.

 

EXAMPLE 1:  My friends husband had the audacity to continuously come after me because I commented that "I would not mind paying more in taxes so everyone  would be able to have health insurance!"  KILL ME!!!  I was reprimanded in front of my friends, and my husband, with him pounding his fists on the table while standing and yelling at me "YOU DON'T PAY ANY TAXES!"  Needless to say, my Warrior Casting came in handy as I told him to "BACK IT UP and SIT THE FUCK DOWN!"  Even though I had, and still have no problem standing up for myself, not one person sitting at that table called him out on his SHIT!  Not even my husband!  

 

EXAMPLE 2:  While enjoying a Sunday at the beach and participating with my husband, my cousin and her husband in a heated discussion relating to my opinion about the passenger that was dragged off the plane unconscious I was called out by an asshole Trump supporter who was sitting behind us.  He said and I quote "I suppose you like Hillary too!"  WTF!!!  SERIOUSLY!!!  MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS!!!  My reply to this DEPLORABLE being was " No, I just like people who are nice!"  Regardless of the answer I gave him, he continued his rhetoric by walking over to my cousins husband and trying to infect the conversation even more.  Thankfully, my cousins husband blew him off and he finally got the message and left!  Again, my husband was silent!

 

EXAMPLE 3:  I have been referred to as a bleeding heart liberal by my husband on more than one occasion lately!!  It has been eye opening, to say the least, to realize after 36 years of marriage that my husband and I are on opposite sides of the aisle!  I hope our marriage can withstand the TOXIC TRUMP EFFECT!!!  My patience with him is starting to wane.    

 

Contrary to everything stated above I, somehow being female and not paying any taxes, was able to put twin girls through college at the same time w/o going bankrupt, learned and dabbled a little bit in the stock market which helped US to purchase the house we are living in now, continue to have an excellent credit score year after year (I am the only one paying the bills, so I guess I can take credit for that too) and I will probably be making all the decisions about my husbands retirement within the next year or two.

 

Due to this TRUMP EFFECT I have found it, sadly, necessary to defend myself and my capabilities as a mother, as a wife and as a female!  I stand up against this EFFECT because I am a MOTHER who has raised 2 DAUGHTERS that will, l hope by my actions, refuse to be treated by anyone with such disrespectful words and actions!!!  FYI:  The husband in EXAMPLE 1 has 2 daughters!!  I guess I stood up for them too!!  Go me!!  

             

Troy, you wrote a beautiful story, and you created this beautiful site!!  Don't let any of this take the wind out of your sails!!  I am not here to take sides!!  That is what this TRUMP EFFECT tries to do, hence why it is so toxic! 

 

Now, as I hope I haven't offended my in-law too much, I will end this by saying hang in there to all who feel this TOXIC TRUMP EFFECT, and continue to stand up and make a difference!!!  Make your voices heard!!!  I better stop!! I've gone on way to long for a first blog entry!!!  LOL 

 

 

       

Hi to you! 
I read with interest, through your description of how the Mad President is influencing your life. 
"They" are really creeping out of the woodwork now that the outside environment is to their liking... 

I am sorry to hear about your husband. We have saying in Iceland, "Þögn er sama og samþykki" or "Silence equals accepting".

From how you describe your treatment by some among your family and relatives, I get a peek into (from my perspective) a culturally alien world. 
It somewhat resembles how my side of the world looked like, 50 - 60 years ago.

However, women have traditionally stronger role in the Nordic culture.

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ClaireC
On 1/2/2018 at 7:32 PM, DanielaS said:

Um, I thought the joke was because after he was crucified he was wrapped in "towels". It made sense to me. It wasn't funny, but it made sense. 1f603.png 

I did, too, @DanielaS!  LOL!  We should have known to expect something more deviant from @Bobby. ?

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Bobby

@Maxim Personally, I think I'd rather shy away from the phrase "if you say so" for the following reasons:

 

This phrase is sarcasm in the form of insincere agreement. “If you say so” doesn’t mean that what’s being said is true – only that it’s being said. What the person is really saying is, “I’ll go along with what you’re saying, but my heart’s not in it and I don’t totally believe you.”

 

If you wish to disengage but still be clear in your communications with someone, something along the lines of  "I disagree but you're entitled to feel the way you feel" which is totally true!  You're not disputing that fact but you're also not getting drawn into whatever it is they wish to draw you into.

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Troy
13 hours ago, DianeHB said:

I pretty much agree with Nadine. No matter how "right" one is, once the conversation gets to a point where both sides are insisting on their rightness and no longer listening, it's time to step back and take a time out. When we get triggered into defense mode, it is nearly impossible to change our minds in the heat of the moment. I think this is actually physiological and not psychological. I've learned from past experience that by backing out of a heated conversation and rethinking it once I've calmed down, I'm able to hear the other person's perspective better and decide what I have to learn from the situation. 

 

I think that when a discussion gets to the point that it did, the choice become not who is "more right", but how far are you willing to push it to prove your point? And is it worth it? 

 

 

This is what I was describing where people are more invested in their Feelings than in The Truth. When you have some people demanding respect for their Feelings and blaming others for their Feelings and some people thinking we are still talking about The Truth and trying to get this across to people who have decided their Feelings are more important than The Truth, it can get really confusing and ugly. It looks like everyone is trying to be "right," but they are just talking about very different things. As someone who has engaged in many many many uncomfortable "political" conversation, it is a very common (and often unconscious) defense tactic to shift the topic away from The Truth and toward Feelings.

 

I know this still looks like The Truth is "right" and Feelings are "wrong," but that's not how it works. Both are important and can be addressed, just not always at the same time. Also, we ALONE can do something about our Feelings. We do not need to convince others to conform to or accept or align with our Feelings. Feelings tell us about ourselves, not other people. We do not always have a choice in controlling what is True, but we always have a choice in how we control our Feelings. We can all do something together with The Truth, but we can't always do something together about your Feelings. 

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Troy
14 hours ago, Maxim said:

One thing I've noticed in this discussion is  this idea that certain people because of who they are have experienced different (painful) things than others. EG, if you are gay then you get ridiculed or mistreated.  And that this is not understood by those who are not in that category.  Maybe.  Maybe there are different ways to respond to that treatment such as taking it all very painfully and living with that pain and telling others about it.  Another way is to walk away and create a life that doesn't reflect that pain.  And yet another is to fight back and go after those who do the mistreating.    For an old soul the choices would seem to be a greater than a younger soul.  While I do not agree with any mistreatment that goes from genital mutilation to food shortages and believe something should be done about it, I also see there is choice involved by those who are affected.  Since this is an old soul community I wonder how much choice is available to those who feel mistreated in any way. My sense is that some are not owning their ability to make choices.  I realize when you are in pain the idea of choice is often far from your awareness.  I am happy to be corrected in my thinking.

 

I would love to say that Older Souls have this wider range of options, but they don't. Being an Old Soul does not make me immune or exempt from Oppression. Yes, I have a choice in how I respond to it, but I don't have a choice in what happens to me. I am forced to deal with it. I choose to respond with efforts to help others who need help and to educate those who can be educated.

 

One thing that you could do well to understand is that people DO NOT always have a choice. Women who suffer genital mutilation or people who suffer from starvation are NOT actively choosing this. Michael has made this very clear. We do not always have a choice in what happens to us. They did not choose to be mutilated or starve. These things are part of the gamble of the Physical Plane and we choose other things that are sometimes hooked into suffering and pain, but it is a gross misinterpretation and oversimplification to describe a young girl with no choice as choosing to be mutilated or a group of people with no resources to be choosing to starve. 

 

Being an Old Soul is not just about learning how better to respond to that which we have no choice in the matter, but how better to relate to those not like us. I lovingly and compassionately suggest that a first step would be to be very very careful and mindful about presuming everyone has the same range of choices as a privileged and free white heterosexual male. Maybe one day we will get there! We are trying. But until then, your compassion for the LACK of choices in others is where you can enlist your Old Soulness. Presuming everyone has the same range of choice comes from the teachings of the Young Soul paradigm.

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Maxim [memorial profile]

I love you Troy and every other person that is not white heterosexual male.  Much LOVE.

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Nadine
51 minutes ago, Troy said:

it is a very common (and often unconscious) defense tactic to shift the topic away from The Truth and toward Feelings.

 

I think we're all on board with your Truth here, Troy, so there is no need to assume it is a defense tactic. I know that it is often used that way, but not always. Please try to keep that in mind.

 

55 minutes ago, Troy said:

I know this still looks like The Truth is "right" and Feelings are "wrong," but that's not how it works. Both are important and can be addressed, just not always at the same time. Also, we ALONE can do something about our Feelings. We do not need to convince others to conform to or accept or align with our Feelings. Feelings tell us about ourselves, not other people. We do not always have a choice in controlling what is True, but we always have a choice in how we control our Feelings. We can all do something together with The Truth, but we can't always do something together about your Feelings. 

 

It was quite possible to have honored both Feelings and Truth, we just failed to do so. They were not mutually exclusive. No need to choose.

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