Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Jana

@Miizle, when considering what to vaccinate against, why and at what age, you need to consider each antigen (illness) separately. Each would be considered based on different criteria, different risks, even for different individuals, sexes, ages. For this reason, nobody, Michael including, can give you a detailed enough answer, covering all possible vaccines and all possible cases, in such a short format.

 

From what you have written, it sounds like you are asking about MMR specifically. The best you can do is to educate yourself to the greatest depth you can, and then make your decisions. Michael's answer in this kind of format cannot give you an adequate and educated answer. Maybe if you did an hour long session with them on each separate vaccine, or even antigen, then you'd be closer. But let me mention a few things about measles, mumps and rubella.

 

Besides delaying vaccination, another technique for reducing the risk is to tailor specifically what you vaccinate against. Sometimes this is complicated by antigens being combined in commonly used vaccines. For example one might decide to vaccinate against only 2 or 3 antigens, that are normally administered in vaccines containing additional antigens, typically because you have determined that for a given child they do not present a risk, or the risk of the additional antigen is not higher than the risk of the combined vaccine itself. The challenge there might be availability of such vaccines, but it might be worth pursuing and asking about.

 

Rubella is a mild viral illness, sometimes without symptoms. Once you have it, you have a life-long immunity. Vaccination does not guarantee the same. The biggest risk of rubella is in pregnant women, during the first and second trimester of pregnancy (and to lesser degree in third trimester), causing higher risk of foetal anatomical malformations or even miscarriage (the earlier in the pregnancy, the higher risk). This is called rubella syndrome (CRS) - Congenital Rubella Syndrome. This is the only reason rubella is vaccinated against. For a boy it makes no sense at all. Women who had rubella before becoming pregant, are not at risk of CRS at all. So the logical solution is for women to have the disease before they have children.

 

Mumps - official statistics say that out of all reported cases of mumps, around 88%(!) of patients caught them despite of being previously vaccinated. I don't know about you, but to me that is not a very reassuring number. The highest incidence is between 10–14 year olds, but is significant even in 5-9 year old category, and therefore fairly soon after the usual age when the MMR booster is administered, and not in some late and distant adulthood. Interestingly, the incidence then falls again in adulthood, regardless of being vaccinated or not. Mumps are more dangerous than rubella, but it depends on the age of the patient. The older the patient is, the higher risk of complications. They are at their most dangerous in adolescents and adults. It's a bit like asking - would you rather your child had 100% risk of having mumps before they are five, or 20% risk of having them in adolescence? This demonstrates the difficulty of the decision (and does not consider the risks of the vaccine itself). Why doesn't the vaccine guarantee immunity? There are four possibilities:

  • early running out of the protective effect of the vaccine (immunity was created but did not last long)
  • primary failure of the vaccination (the body failed to create immunity after the vaccination)
  • the immunity not being strong enough when the body is exposed to a large large amount of the virus
  • variations of the virus (there are several)

Measles

Out of the three antigens combined in MMR, measles have been vaccinated against the longest. For example I was vaccinated against them as a child, but never got a rubella or mumps vaccine, as that was after my time. I had both rubella and mumps as a young child, not older than 6, and they were mild diseases in my case. If you decided to vaccinate against measles but skip rubella and mumps, it might be available as a separate vaccine.

In 2016 WHO has declared measles eradicated in all of North and South America. It's an interesting claim, after the US reporting one of the highest incidences of measles ever in 2013-2014. In actual fact, this declaration of elimination is based on reducing the number of clinical cases of measles. But it has been documented that certain percentage of vaccinated people can catch measles, but the full symptoms do not develop. They can still carry and spread the virus. Therefore basing the assessment on clinically reported cases is inaccurate. Also, practically it's only possible to eradicate a virus that is only carried by humans. But biologists have found that measles and many other viruses can be carries by bats. Thus measles have potentially a natural reservoir (unless someone is planning to eradicate or vaccinate all bats).

Serious complications are more common in children under the age of 5, or adults over the age of 30. Vitamin A deficiency is also a risk factor.

Natural immunity against measles, which is acquired through disease, gives life-long immunity while vaccination does not, but booster should give protective level of antibodies.

Measles were a common childhood illness in older generations. Over the time, as living conditions of population improved, the mortality of measles decreased. 

 

General note: bad nutrition, hygienic conditions and weakened or very immature immune system lower the effectivity of vaccines in general AND increase their dangers. Equally, if you decide not to vaccinate, and the child catches the disease, these factors (in reverse) help to lower the risk of complications.

 

Edited by Jana
  • LIKE/LOVE 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maureen
48 minutes ago, Janet H said:

What I think it means is if trump had not succumbed to his imprinting (all accounts suggest that the imprint from his father manifests in his narcissism, greed, insecurity, always needing to be "the best," "the greatest" etc.) then he might have lived a different life. Perhaps he would have used his abilities for good and to help others, etc., instead of this distortion of humankind that he is today. In that case, Mueller's "sincere and authentic loyalty" (his karmic debt) would have probably played a role that is conventionally understood as loyal (like a loyal attorney, for example, a defender).

 

As it turns out, since trump did succumb to his imprinting, Mueller is paying this debt by his loyalty to trump's authentic self, which trump has lost and abandoned. Therefore in my interpretation of this, Mueller's current role to hold trump accountable is the form his karmic debt is taking. There's no telling I guess whether it will work out as we hope for the rest of us. But it does suggest that Mueller will remain true to his purpose of holding trump accountable and in that sense I imagine he will have balanced the debt. 

 

My two cents...:-)

 

That's exactly how I read what Michael told us, @Janet H.  Thank you for spelling it out so succinctly.  :student:

 

  • LIKE/LOVE 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Diane

@Janet H

Thank you for your two cents - it helps me understand the situation and the Q&A better. (and I am Canadian)

  • LIKE/LOVE 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stickyflames
4 hours ago, Maxim said:

 

TRUE CONFESSIONS:  @Stickyflames I thought you didn't like to engage with me.  So I am delighted we had this exchange.  It is nothing specific you did except not exchange with me much.  Please do not go into self analysis; take it as a grain of sand since it seems to be mostly about me. 

Hmm I apologize if I ever gave the impression that I did not wish to engage you. It was never anything intentional on my part. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maxim [memorial profile]
42 minutes ago, Stickyflames said:

Hmm I apologize if I ever gave the impression that I did not wish to engage you. It was never anything intentional on my part. 

 

Thanks.  Got that bit of anxiety taken care of.  No worries Royce.  My mind is rather acute and little pieces stand out.  Glad I asked.  It is validating because another piece was convinced you were just doing your thing and my status was not on your mind.  Much Love to Salt Springs and other parts Canadian.  Also keep in mind this is the mind of a dying man...lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mike Cleverly

I read the point about "sincere and authentic loyalty" and interpreted that to mean that Mueller would investigate the people around Trump and prosecute them as scapegoats, leaving Trump still standing, portraying Trump as an innocent man surrounded by weak people who betrayed his trust. I don't think its going to work out that way anymore!

  • LIKE/LOVE 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leela Corman

@Miizle If this helps, there is no science behind claims that the MMR vaccination is dangerous. Those claims originate with a hoax perpetrated by a man named Andrew Wakefield, who was a doctor and who has now been stripped of his licenses. Wakefield has no doubt incurred a great deal of karma with his destructive, greedy work. He was trying to bring his own vaccine to market, a single dose rather than the triple one that we use now, and in order to discredit the more viable triple dose, he began to advance the bogus claim that the triple dose was dangerous. In the process, he used children in his experiments without the consent of their guardians/parents, which, I don't think I need to highlight, is deeply unethical. His claims were eventually retracted by the medical journal that published them. Now, this may sound relatively innocuous, but as many people in medical and scientific fields have pointed out, retractions of studies almost never happen. It's extremely rare and is undertaken very seriously. If it happens, it means something was very wrong.

It is useful to look at the demographics of vaccination refusal. In the US it's upper class white people, demographically speaking, who create pockets of low vaccination rates. This has effects on less privileged people; an unvaccinated person caused a measles outbreak while traveling in South America recently. It also has effects on people who cannot protect themselves with vaccinations due to illnesses that cause them to be immunocompromised, such as cancer and T1 diabetes (which so often affects children). It is striking to look at the public health data on vaccination rates; our family doctor, who works out of a clinic serving a largely low-income clientele in our town, tells me that poor people generally don't need to be convinced that vaccines work and are safe. It's people from the upper classes who are more susceptible to pseudoscience.

I will tell you, as a person who works with history in my day job, this topic fills me with despair. I have seen firsthand the graves of children in old cemeteries, and the data on epidemic disease in the first half of the 20th century alone. We have become complacent about our safety as a species from these diseases, to the point where some people actually claim that they can be healthy to contract! There's a children's book about "Marvelous Measles". Measles can be fatal. The author Roald Dahl wrote a heartbreaking account of his daughter's death as a child from it, when the vaccine for it was developed, urging people to avoid the fate of his child, for whom its development came too late. It's easy to find, and quite triggering if you have lost a child, but it is essential reading.

In my observation, much of the fear of vaccines looks like a kind of magical thinking to me. This takes different forms in different cultures; for example, in rural Pakistan and Afghanistan, and in parts of Nigeria, fundamentalist clerics tell people that vaccines are designed to render Muslim women infertile. This has had disastrous effects on local citizens and on public health workers who give vaccinations in these areas. There is now a resurgence of polio in both places, especially in Afghanistan, and just last week, a mother/daughter team of public health workers were shot dead in Pakistan. They were not the first health workers to be assassinated.

There is increasing research pointing to genetic and environmental factors in autism. Consider this: our bodies are exposed to all kinds of substances every day, all the time. A vaccination contains almost nothing. It's a one-time dose of something tiny. As the saying goes, "The dose makes the toxin". Look to the larger doses out there, if you can bear it. I understand the psychology of fearing the shot, because it looks like one of the few things you can control that your child is exposed to. But it is not the thing to focus our fears on. It would be more productive to work to eliminate plastics and other endocrine disruptors, among other things.

I'd like to also add that the voices of autistic spectrum people are rarely admitted into these conversations. I have heard some autistic people express anger and sadness, and feelings of discrimination, in this conversation. While I do not diminish the very real concerns of people raising autistic kids (I have friends with non-verbal low-functioning kids, and there are many high-functioning people on the spectrum in all of our lives), I fear deadly epidemic disease far more than I fear those who are neurologically different from me.

Make friends with some scientists and public health people. They have the best data and in my experience, are very happy to answer all questions without prejudice. They want to help.

  • LIKE/LOVE 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leela Corman

I would also like to add that what Wakefield did was particularly awful in that he manipulated parents' love and concern for their children. Of course we are going to listen closely when someone tells us that something is a danger to our kids. Of course we are all deeply invested in protecting our kids. No one wants to harm their child. So what he did was particularly insidious. Michael's description of "mindfuck" karma springs to mind. That, and he has preventable deaths on his hands. If I believed in hell, I'd say there's a chair in it for him.
 

  • LIKE/LOVE 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Miizle

Thanks @Jana and @Leela Corman for your input on vaccinations.

It literally makes me feel sick thinking about this. It feels like there is no good options here. If only all the information available was unbiased and out in the open, it would be easier to know what to do (or would it even...??) Well, that's why i have asked Michael but.... it is too complex. You know, the funny thing is that i wasn't even going to really consider not vaccinating anymore as an option, but then i watched that "inspiring" video someone posted about someone who recovered from autism into becoming an actor, and to me it was, yes, inspiring sort of, but most of all scary as hell, because they said he fell into mute autism within days after his MMR.

 

I do realise the risks are very small, although real, as Michael has stated. Well, this goes for vaccine injury as well as serious measels complication. Mumps and especially rubella are just so stupid to be included in this, I don't understand why they don't just vaccinate girls against rubella at 15 or something, that should be adequate... (Although that info from Leela gives a little comfort here.)

 

If i just lived in the country somewhere, i seriously would not worry about these vaccines for many years. But we live in a town full of tourists and expats from all over the place, and kids fresh from India etc play in the same playgrounds, plus we travel quite a bit, with family in 3 countries. It does sound like the responsible thing to do to take her to get the shot ASAP, and i'm quite confident she will be fine.

 

Maybe the core of the issue is my own doubt about how well i have managed to deal with nutrition and exposure to environmental toxins. I'm scared i have done almost sub-par recently, but my bar is very, very high. I guess i've just cut myself some slack and breathed a little more now that she's not a total baby anymore (20 months), and underneath there is more fear/guilt than i have realised. FUCK i hate it how toxic the world is these days. I let her touch my laptop and my phone, way too much, just to get at least something done in my day, and i forget to wash her hands. She even has 2 plastic electronic pianos that she loves. Me a year ago would slap the now me with an open palm. Me 2 years ago would just stare in disbelief, jaw dropped, all hope in the world lost.  8P (true story)

 

She's so full of life, so verbal, so witty, it would break my soul into an unrepearable cloud of dust if she lost it all.

Edited by Miizle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leela Corman

@Miizle It is so totally normal to worry about our kids, to beat ourselves up for things and to feel like we are the only thing standing between this beautiful vulnerable being and all the harm in the world. I feel you on this hard! I have PTSD due to the sudden death of my first child, and it has been a very difficult journey sometimes to parent her baby sister without making decisions from that place.
So on this I would say that you have spoken with great wisdom about yourself when you say that maybe it's ok to cut yourself a little slack and take a breath. You sound like a wonderful parent.

 

There are a few things to unpack here, so I'm going to be categorical in the interest of clarity (so I don't ramble too much ;) ):

 

1) I would be very skeptical about random health videos on the internet. Anyone can say anything online. There is a great deal of pseudoscience out there, and it takes a lot of skill to navigate it so that we can determine what information is accurate, and what is not. The people who promote false health information online prey on our lack of medical and scientific training, and our fears and concerns for loved ones. Videos are among the worst offenders, because they are easy to make and share, and are a quick delivery system that's designed to go viral on sharing platforms. I am especially alarmed that someone is claiming they "reversed" their autism. That's like a giant flashing siren of untruth, to me. So, consider letting go of the fears that that video caused you. Of course, don't take my word for it - the person who can best help you is your child's pediatrician. Doctors really want to be helpful in this area especially. They are generally public-health minded people who exist at the intersection point of science and human service, and they really want children to be healthy. They want parents to feel secure. Take all of your questions and concerns to her. Write them down and bring them all in. Don't fear being judged or scorned. She's probably answered them all, and will likely welcome the opportunity to help you feel better. NOTE: Good information is peer-reviewed and comes from educated sources. One of my doctors once told me to never get health information from anyone who calls themselves "Dr. (First Name)". I thought that was amusing, but it's also good advice. Also, if someone claims that they somehow magically reversed a serious condition, especially if they're now trying to sell you the "cure" that they claim did that, run the other way. That isn't how health care works. And finally, if someone claims a) that a single cause is to blame for a wide number of disparate health conditions or b) that a single cure (that they're conveniently selling) is the cure for many disparate health conditions, that is a classic medical con, dating back to the medicine show, snake oil, and probably earlier than that. I always envision the people making those claims standing on an a crate, wearing a carny outfit and shouting at passing crowds about their miracle cure.

 

2) There haven't been any documented cases of vaccines causing children to become nonverbal. However, there is a reason people fear this. I have a good friend who is a professor of public health here at the University of Florida, and I asked her directly about this. I also cross-referenced by asking my daughter's pediatrician, a deeply compassionate public health person and fantastic humanitarian and scientist. They both explained that the onset of spectrum issues such as autism is often around 18-24 months, and this coincides with a round of vaccines. This is a coincidence, and is unrelated. It has been studied exhaustively, and it is the definition of the phrase "correlation is not causation", which I am considering having tattooed on my forearm. Correlation is not causation: I was walking down the street and I saw my crush across the way. I tripped and sprained my ankle. Therefore my crush makes me hurt myself. That's correlation. It's actually not his fault I tripped. Make sense? It's crude and kind of silly but it's handy.

 

3) Regarding environmental exposures: this is a great example of how capitalism forces individuals to feel responsible for things that corporations really ought to be. You're not the one dumping pollution into the air and seas. You can only do so much, and I bet you do a great job. This is a thing we need to fight as citizens. We all need to be fierce advocates for better practices in food, energy, and more. We all find our ways to do that as individuals. For me personally, I recycle, I bike, I try to mostly eat vegetarian, I turn lights off, and I try to cut back on plastic usage but this world does not make it easy. Plastics are really destructive, from microbeads in facial cleansers to plastic grocery bags to packaging. So bad. That said, fears of "toxins" are also much overstated, often by the same parties who claim that vaccines cause autism. My favorite is when people say they're avoiding "chemicals". Oxygen and food are chemicals. Our bodies are made of chemicals. So, take that kind of talk with a grain of salt.

 

4) Here are a couple of good links to read a little more about vaccines, Andrew Wakefield, and studies on the subject. First, a journalistic comic that explains it really well. The drawing is a little cheesy but it breaks the issue down really clearly, and goes into greater detail about Wakefield, whose actions were even more criminal than I remembered! So keep that in mind when assessing your fears around vaccines, that the reason you and so many others are afraid is because of a con man who was trying to patent his own MMR vax!

https://thenib.com/vaccines-work-here-are-the-facts-5de3d0f9ffd0

 

And a handy article I found with good links:

 

https://medium.com/the-method/vaccines-dont-cause-autism-4ea5b1836022
 

Take that breath. Cut yourself that slack. Talk to your doctor and anyone in your life who's a scientist or public health person. You are a loving mom and you are doing your best. And, all hail herd immunity! xoxo

 

Edited by Leela Corman
  • LIKE/LOVE 3
  • THANK YOU! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leela Corman

ps @Miizle also remember that Michael very often says, when asked about medical issues especially, that physical plane doctors in these issues are the best ones to consult. That's helped me navigate my own health issues a lot. I mean, they told me that my endometriosis had something to do with issues around being female, but that is background information. I still had to go to a surgeon to have it healed.

  • LIKE/LOVE 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jean Hamill

I'm confused, Michael was saying earlier that Mueller is from Cadre 11, even though the Michael's are from Cadre 11 and have all cycled off.  Could someone please explain?

  • LIKE/LOVE 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bobby
7 minutes ago, Jean Hamill said:

I'm confused, Michael was saying earlier that Mueller is from Cadre 11, even though the Michael's are from Cadre 11 and have all cycled off.  Could someone please explain?

 

Michael being in Cadre 11 of the Energy Ring before ours.  Mueller is in Cadre 11 of our Energy Ring.

  • LIKE/LOVE 3
  • THANK YOU! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jean Hamill

Also I was going to ask about the numbering of the cadres as most Michael students are 1,2 &3 and Michael 11 and yet the Michael group spent some early lives with some Michael students, your answer explains how this happened.

  • LIKE/LOVE 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bobby
23 minutes ago, Jean Hamill said:

Also I was going to ask about the numbering of the cadres as most Michael students are 1,2 &3 and Michael 11 and yet the Michael group spent some early lives with some Michael students, your answer explains how this happened.

 

Michael's students include our whole Energy Ring, all 12 Cadres.  They have said that any Cadre 11 teaches the whole of the follow on Energy Ring.

  • LIKE/LOVE 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Miizle

@Leela Corman I have meant to get back to you for 1,5 years now. Wow, that's a long time. For this whole time i have regularly thought about you and your comments though, but never when at a computer let alone on TLE, so i have forgot to write a comment. Don't know if that's just me, my anti-superpower or something.
Anyhow, thank you again for your input here. It helped me feel better about getting her the jab, it was though a year after the conversation here, couldn't quite put it off until the completion of the 2nd IM but still. There was an outbreak of measles around the country here, and i didn't want to be one of those who spread it, so that's when i got her vaccinated. One factor here was, that here in our safe little society, we can live with great hygiene and have quality hospital treatments and medicines at our disposal, but the more measles travels the world, the more it also travels to places where people don't live in luxury, and actually die. I feel it's a bit of a weird comment from Michael from a transcript years ago (don't know why i can't find it now), where they said a non-vaccinated person does not increase the risk of others falling ill. I wonder if that was a bit out of context somehow, or from a different perspective type of a comment, miscommunication, or really somehow the truth, because it seems to defy the laws of physics.

  • LIKE/LOVE 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leela Corman

@Miizle Wow, I am so happy to hear that my words were helpful. I feel very strongly about vaccines, but I also never want to make anyone feel defensive. It means a lot to hear that. Ha, wow, I sure went on at length, after promising not to. That's kind of my house style I guess.

 

Re accuracy, Michael has said more than once that there are always inaccuracies in even the best of the channeling, right? Or maybe it was out of context. Certainly unvaccinated people can pass on illnesses to others. There are diseases that can be carried without symptoms. Immunocompromised people (babies, the elderly, cancer and AIDS patients, apparently kids with T1 diabetes too, I'm told) can be infected by contact with unvaccinated people. 

 

The history of vaccines is pretty fascinating. Public health is fascinating! We take so much for granted but it's so useful and interesting (and horrifying) to read about the recent past in so many areas. Public health is the relevant one here, but also sanitation departments, public fire departments, etc. Just reading about life before those things in NYC alone is amazing! Vaccines are an incredibly public health triumph, the like of which we need with climate change and so many other issues, and I fear that the bad citizens have won the day and we won't see it again. Because it is a matter of citizenship, of public good over private selfishness, and we're so damaged by capitalism I don't know how we come back to citizenship as an ideal and a moral guide.

Edited by Leela Corman
  • LIKE/LOVE 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...