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Troubadour

Who are these guys?

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Troubadour

Im wondering if anyone is interested in the crew that has become known as 'The Intellectual Dark Web'? Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Brett Weinstein, Eric Weinstein, Joe Rogan, Ben Shapiro and several others including Ayan Hirsi Ali and Majid Nawas.  Particularly Jordan B. Petersen. He is having a major impact on the (predominantly) male youth culture just now. 

 

 

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Stickyflames

Interested, but don’t see them as anything more than the collective last gasps of threatened masculinity.

 

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Stickyflames

I do not disagree that Jordan Peterson is not extremely intelligent. If you listen to him long enough though, it becomes obvious that he is using his resources and intelligence to uphold tired traditions and further divide people. This is a man whose “ cause” is diluting liberal activism in a world where there are Nazis. It is no shocker that his audience is packed full of alt-right traditionalists.

I am not a fan of PC culture , policing others and self righteousness. I am also not a fan of refusing to listen to why marginilized groups might be angry, refusing to listen in general, stagnating views of identity in a world that needs nurturing for our rapid expansion of identities, and basically any excuse whatsoever to justify prejudice.

He has snippets of empowering conversation but the big picture supports a dying paradigm. 

 

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Christian

Shapiro worked for brietbart and is a right wing Jew.  He is a Jew who worked for brietbart. He promots right-wing ideology.  His website site the daily caller literally makes up stories to support his narrative.  He is a lair and an ideologue and not worth the brain power to listen too.

 

 

Peterson wants to be seen as thought leader and has literally said he wants a church. He talks in word salads and has blatantly ignored history to promote his ideas on the Nazis.  He also doesn't have a clue what post-modernism is.  It physically hurt my head to listen to him.

 

Harris is extremely smart.  But he has an amazing blindspot when it comes to his own actions.  He can't seem to every admit something he said could be wrong. As he has gotten older, he has become more defensive about things and seems less open to ideas.

 

Rogan is not an intellectual and has never claimed to be.  He does want to talk with people in a long format to discuss ideas.   He has been elevated to a level I don't think he aspired to because he is willing to talk with many people from many different backgrounds.  He is smart and willing to learn but he knows his limits and will admit he doesn't know or can't follow where the guest is going. 

 

 

Nawas is a Muslim and Ali is an ex-muslim.  Both are working to help fight against the religion taking over government here and in their homelands, assist those trying to escape and adjust to living with out religion.  I am supportive of them. They are not apart of the intellectual dark web.

 

I would also add that they would most likely be killed if they returned to their homelands.

 

I don't know about the weinstiens.

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Troubadour

I’m not certain there isn’t more going on than that. This group of people are seriously debating and discussing the existence of God among other things. Here is Peterson in debate with Susan Blackmore..”Jesus Christ is the archetypal manifestation of the logos”. He goes on to say that western law which is based on the Judeo Christian historical ethic is predicated on the idea that the human being is Devine. “The sovereignty of the individual is the divinity of the individual. The law itself is written as if we each contain a spark of divinity. What is that divinity? In the Christian world view that’s the logos..the true speech that brings forth habitable and good order from the chaos of potential.”

 

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SharvariJ

I've only ever been exposed to Sam Harris from your list, but the whole militant atheist gang (Harris, Dawkins, etc.) have always made me inexplicably angry. Their views are totally valid, but their delivery is divisive and doctrinal, which is ironic because that's what they're preaching against. I have no issue with empiricism as a means to navigate reality (even if it's held as the ONLY way to navigate reality), but these guys make it sound like an US-and-THEM debate where everybody who isn't US is an ignorant, deluded peasant deserving of crucifixion. It makes sense that the alt-right would be attracted to such rhetoric, since it reinforces their Baby-Soul-like modus operandi, albeit with anti-religious content as opposed to racist or xenophobic or homophobic content.

Edited by SharvariJ
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Troubadour

I think there is an important evolution of culture at play with the ‘intellectual dark web’ and their long-form discussions. You may not agree with everything they say but that doesn’t mean that what is being said has no value. I have listened to Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson debate the nature of truth at length and with an honest intent to get to the heart of the matter. 

I’ve heard Ayn Hirsi Ali speak at length on the repercussions of her choices. And Masha Gessen on Russia was a revelation to me. 

It can be annoying because these people are speaking from a particular standpoint and sometimes they are  short sighted or plain wrong. But the point is that there is debate and unlike in the mainstream media you get to hear the whole discussion from beginning to end. Warts and all. And you get to decide what you think for yourself after you have heard all of the information. 

This podcast https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/jocko-podcast/id1070322219?mt=2&i=1000394272558 features Jordan Peterson interviewed by Jocko Willink and is worth a listen in my humble opinion

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AnnH

Jordan Peterson is a Jungian and what he discusses is pretty much standard within Jungian thought.  I've heard of a few of the others, like Ben Shapiro. I think it's more valuable to go straight to the source, i.e., Jung, than to get it filtered through Peterson's rather petrified version.

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Troubadour

Time marches on. Carl Jung died in 1961. Modern psychology has the benefit of 50 years of research and development in the field and  advances in neuroscience. Jung is unlikely to reach the general population as his writings are not written for the man in the street. Modern experts like Robert K Johnson and Peterson are easier to digest. And Peterson is getting through to the youth. His book “12 Rules For Life” has sold more than a million copies and his podcasts and interviews are impacting the culture by virtue of the numbers paying attention.

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AnnH
6 hours ago, Troubadour said:

Time marches on. Carl Jung died in 1961. Modern psychology has the benefit of 50 years of research and development in the field and  advances in neuroscience. Jung is unlikely to reach the general population as his writings are not written for the man in the street. Modern experts like Robert K Johnson and Peterson are easier to digest. And Peterson is getting through to the youth. His book “12 Rules For Life” has sold more than a million copies and his podcasts and interviews are impacting the culture by virtue of the numbers paying attention.

From what little I've read about Peterson, his work is not in neuroscience. He's a psych professor whose work, according to Wiki is influenced by Jung, Nietzsche Dostoevsky among others. (BTW, Jung was a 5th Level Old Priest). So it looks like some of Peterson's influences go back even further than Jung.

 

Jung is not difficult reading at all. But perhaps Peterson will introduce people to Memories, Dreams, Reflections. There are also really good, more popular Jungian-influenced writers out there who are very accessible and much less prescriptive.

 

Setting aside my skepticism of the idea that youtube stars and best-selling books means a person's ideas are especially valuable, Peterson's views can be misogynistic, and frankly, reactionary. Comparing human behavior to lobster hierarchical behavior is one ludicrous extended metaphor that illuminates nothing. In fact, it's nonsensical.  Unlike lobsters, we humans have choice.

 

I think Peterson's current appeal goes part and parcel with M's discussion of the fear of moving into the Mature Soul paradigm. Probably a necessary part of moving into it, however.

 

Edited by AnnH
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Troubadour

We seem to be getting crossed wires. No offence is intended here. I think my post said that modern psychology has the benefit of advances in neuroscience and I made no mention of Peterson being a neuroscientist. In my opinion the advantage a modern psychologist has over Jung is that much of the work Jung did has been tested and updated using scientific techniques. 

 

Peterson is a polarising figure. I am interested in why some people are so stridently opposed to his every utterance while others describe him as a ‘great man’. 

 

I would like to reassert here that no offence is intended by me. I have read and listened to Jordan Peterson  in great detail since I first asked if anyone on TLE was interested in the Intellectual Dark Web. (Maybe the ‘a’ in dark should be changed to an ‘o’). Frankly, I had expected a different reaction and the fact that there seems to be opposition on TLE  is partly why I investigated in depth. 

I can’t say I agree that Peterson is misogynistic. I would genuinely like to know why you think so.

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Troy

I agree 100% with @Stickyflames on this one.  Intellectual prowess has nothing to do with the value of someone's pondering and philosophy. Some of the smartest people are still assholes. Most of these guys are so disconnected from reality beyond being straight, white and male. Several of them are Right Wing douchebags, racists, and homophobes and conspiracy nutjobs wrapped in toxic masculinity. It makes sense that most of their audience is the same. To listen to these people talk is like saying there can be value gained by attending an Alt Right gathering because a lot of them are smart and educated. Sure. You go right ahead. This whole "Intellectual Dark Web" movement is a recruitment engine that works in favor of molding more mindsets that support someone like Trump. There may be gems of wisdom and thought-provoking concepts buried in this toxicity, but I don't have any interest in poisoning myself as a way to access a gem when I have an ocean of clean water to swim with other more compassionate and wiser teachers and philosophers.

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Troubadour

Well this makes it interesting. I booked a session a few weeks ago for the 20th September with you @troy to get Jordan Peterson’s overleaves channeled. 

As I have said before in this discussion I am interested in the group called the Intellectual Dark Web and how it is playing out in the culture. Is it possible some assumptions have been made about my stance on this matter? 

I am a Michael student and I believe I have agreements in place with Michael and I am guessing all of us who are active on TLE are in a similar position. I think this implies that we all have a bond and a duty to give each other a fair hearing. We are world leaders here at TLE. The words that are written here are important. They are part of an historical record which will be read and pondered long after we are no longer extant. 

 

It might be interesting to ask for Michaels take on all of this if you have time once the overleaves are channeled.

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Troy
7 minutes ago, Troubadour said:

Well this makes it interesting. I booked a session a few weeks ago for the 20th September with you @troy to get Jordan Peterson’s overleaves channeled. 

As I have said before in this discussion I am interested in the group called the Intellectual Dark Web and how it is playing out in the culture. Is it possible some assumptions have been made about my stance on this matter? 

I am a Michael student and I believe I have agreements in place with Michael and I am guessing all of us who are active on TLE are in a similar position. I think this implies that we all have a bond and a duty to give each other a fair hearing. We are world leaders here at TLE. The words that are written here are important. They are part of an historical record which will be read and pondered long after we are no longer extant. 

 

It might be interesting to ask for Michaels take on all of this if you have time once the overleaves are channeled.

 

LOL, no no no... I don't have any assumptions about you at all. I was responding to the concepts and the primary people involved and what they say and the majority of those I've seen as their audience. I only saw you as being curious and exploring all of this. I have my opinion because I have no patience for bigotry, so when a group gathers in the name of bigotry and then cloaks that in supposed sensible and smart language, it just doesn't impress me or make me choose to ignore their bigotry. I know not everyone involved is extreme in their bigotry, but you could say the same for the supporters of Trump. For me, they are all complicit in perpetuating twisted ideals.

 

So far, I've not had any problems with my own attitude and opinions affecting my work with Michael, but you never know. We will definitely keep an eye on that for your session!

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Troy
5 hours ago, Troubadour said:

I can’t say I agree that Peterson is misogynistic. I would genuinely like to know why you think so.

 

See the video above for a great breakdown of how Peterson is entirely mysoginistic and bigoted. He's rather disgusting.

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Wendy

I read one article about him and my takeaway was a Nazi but any other name is still a Nazi.  

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Stickyflames

 

now....contrapoints’ jordan peterson episode...this one is a keeper.

 

Jordan peterson has this great website where you map out your future and structure some sort of direction for yourself. I have used it a few times back in the day and found it engaging and fun. His russel brand interviews are great because russel asks the questions on a lot of our brains. I would LOVE his overleaves. 

I think if he had an exercised emotional center , he would be very beneficial. 

He is insightful , prolific and glaringly sentimental.

 As a confused young man, When I see someone talk so assuredly about issues in our culture, I LISTEN. I was sucked into a peterson hole for bit too. He had answers, dammit! I am confused and need em! 

I don’t even entirely disagree with him when it comes to the CONSTANT offense in our growing expression policing culture. I witness the insanity of this constant offense when I attend basically any political activism group. I mean, there are people there who actually IDENTIFY as depressed. I get depressed! I understand depression! It is dangerous to declare that as ones identity!

So all of that of course made me listen for awhile. 

Then I listened more. 

And more....

I started to see he was really fighting for traditional roles : man, woman, family.

He was not just challenging peoples identities and policing , he was telling marginilized people that there was no such thing as opression.

His crowds began packing with alt-right swarms.

Oh, pederson gave their ideology a slap on the wrist, but full speed a head focused on the Left ! How THEIR policing will one day lead to the enslavement of free speech! The snowflakes are the real enemies!

How insane! To me, it is just insane! You have a real nazi in the whitehouse, with growing sympathizers, literally threatening free speech in a way we have not seen here .....and the left’s policing of language is the problem? Ok.

The whole shebang lacks PERCEPTION.

Edited by Stickyflames
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Stickyflames

 

 

 

 

posting russel brands interviews with him. I enjoyed them and Russel’s curiosity and side eye.

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Christian

Here's a longer form satirical look at Peterson from the same guy I posted before.

 

 

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Troy
1 hour ago, Christian said:

Here's a longer form satirical look at Peterson from the same guy I posted before.

 

I'm hooked on this guy. I'm a new subscriber, now. He is excellent at presenting these complicated and convoluted people so clearly and concisely for what they actually are and what they mean. I'm so impressed. Thanks for sharing this, Christian!

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AnnH

I'd love to see Peterson's overleaves.

 

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Troubadour
On 8/8/2018 at 1:10 AM, Wendy said:

I read one article about him and my takeaway was a Nazi but any other name is still a Nazi.  

Its pragmatism month! Dogma Vs efficiency.

The Nazis were responsible for the deaths of 80 million (give or take)  people.

 

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Philip Wittmeyer

A few weeks ago, I discovered Jordan Peterson, and he captured my attention. I have been watching his videos ever since, and videos about him. I have my guesses about his Overleaves, and I would like to see some channeling on that. Please also provide some info/insights on the part he is playing in this chaotic transition we are living through. Based on the fact that he is a sort of 'phenomenon' in the zeitgeist at this time, I suspect he has a significant role to play, if he does not crash and burn, if he is not a 'flash in the pan'.

What interests me is that he covers a lot of the same conceptual (psychological, philosophical, mythological, spiritual) territory that I do, and he is way smarter than I am, has way more knowledge than I do, has thought much more deeply than I have, and is way more articulate than I am. I learn a lot from him and the discussions around him (see 'Rebel Wisdom' on YouTube), and -- pompous, pretentious, presumptuous, pedantic prick that I am -- I don't say this about many other people. He is a magnetic-electric catalyst for me in a way that I have not experienced before. This does not mean that I agree with him; it means that he provokes soul-searching in me, same as the Trump 'phenomenon'. Your mileage may vary.

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Christian

 

This guy summed up why many are becoming disillusioned with Harris.

In my opinion, he also hints at why Harris has become a darling of the right 

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