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Leela Corman

4th IM completed in negative pole?

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Leela Corman

I had a really interesting session with Michael last night in which I asked about my 4th IM - that wasn't the main question but it was part of it. Here's what they said about my 4th IM, specifically:

 

"It appears you may have, actually, "completed"
this Internal Monad in the negative pole and discovered that this
simply would not work for you. You lived in that Incongruity for quite
some time. Incongruity is like having a clear sense of who you are,
but it is in conflict with "everything" in your existence. It is a way
of being yourself,  but bumping up against everything you are not.

[REDACTED] did not simply show up and then you began an
awakening. You began an awakening and this opened you to experiences
that would have otherwise been missed or rejected or even seen as a
threat. Instead, you did the work of owning any space of conflict
between you and life and others, and moved away from blame, dismissal,
and exasperation. You moved toward compassion, and patience, and
willingness to reconsider perspectives."

 

So, I found this quite surprising, for a number of reasons. I also felt/feel slightly embarrassed to have initially completed this IM in the negative pole, which is funny to me - my embarrassment, I mean, is humorous to me. Like, really? I did? Why? But mainly I'm a little perplexed. Now I'm looking back at the past, I don't know, two decades, and trying to figure out when I might have been living that Incongruity most recognizably. Last night I went through the TLE archives on this subject, specifically looking for descriptions of the negative pole of this IM. I don't recognize very much about my life in those descriptions. I know that I have lived with a lot of joy, essence recognition, creativity, gratitude, and power for years. I haven't been living in a constricted way, clinging to the past or to grudges, nor have I blamed others for my problems. So...maybe there's more to the actual experience of the negative pole than we have discussed? Or maybe I went back and revisited and "repaired" it a while ago and so that's why I can't quite recall it? I don't know. I do know that I have gained a degree of control over my flaws in the past few years, like my temper, my imprinting around anger and how and when to express it, my self-deprecation, etc.

Clearly I did "go back" and redo it, something I need to ask them about next time. It's just kind of surprising to hear that I initially completed it in the negative. I'm not sure what that means and against my better judgment I feel a bit like I failed a test. Which, by the way, is also funny, that is amusing to me as much as it is perplexing. Interested in other peoples' insights and experiences here.

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KurtisM

I'm currently in the 6th Stage of the 4th IM, but definitely see I've entered the 7th Stage's -Incongruity too.

I think Incongruity is a bit like you having accepted "this is who I have decided I am", but instead of focusing on that self-realization, you're focusing on everything and everyone that is still saying who you are that you know you obviously aren't anymore.

In other words, you're not putting your energy into & seeing the beauty in your new you. That energy and beauty is being fractured and divided across what represents the old you, or the you that others see is you.

 

Considering that, +Alignment would occur when your focus is on YOU as you have truly chosen you are, rather than NOT YOU.

 

I think I see your struggle with Incongruity reflected in your posts- especially concerning your difficulties with iirc your band, your boundaries, the sociopolitical atmosphere etc.

But that's just my reflection.

I hope this comment helps!

Edited by KurtisM
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Leela Corman

 @KurtisM I completed my 4th IM for real in 2016 or thereabouts. Incongruity and struggle are a natural part of life, and if you are a marginalized person of any sort, like, say, a woman in this capitalist patriarchy, it won't go away just because you know who you are. What you see in my posts is just life. The incongruity Michael is talking about is something different. 

 

I never posted the followup session where they went into more detail about this for me. They told me that I'd more "taken a break", which was interesting. I will say here that it definitely feels different to be done with the 4th in the +. But it doesn't make struggles disappear, Kurtis. It just means im more authentically myself when I face them. I'm not trying to pretend to be fuckin' cute and unthreatening anymore.

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KurtisM

Oh interesting, perhaps I am wrong then.

Going through the 4th IM has certainly made me more authentic. So hi five to us for that embrace of self! 👏

Yeah struggles don't go away from the 4th IM, but I do think unnecessary fights against them (especially internally) go away with a +Pole 4th IM. When I finished my 3rd IM in the +Pole back in 2016, so much conflict just dissipated from my life. I felt I could just free myself and pursue my independence much more easily. The same appears to hold true for the 4th IM for me.

That didn't forgo the struggles I had, just made me feel less lonely dealing with them, because I had myself and my Intimate Support for help.

I hope I didn't marginalize your struggles with my comment.

Edited by KurtisM
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Leela Corman

You didn't, @KurtisM. I think it's just important to remember that, as Michael has said (I am paraphrasing badly, as I always do with them, "scathing is part of the physical plane". Having conflicts or struggles in your life is not a sign of anything but being here, living, encountering other people's realities and choices as well as your own. I could also insert a critique here of the lack of intersectionality in so much "new age" dogma, but to be clear, that is coming from me and my own experiences, not any response to you.

 

In retrospect, I think that completing my 4th IM is what caused the tremendous return to many things in my life I'd attempted to reject when I was in my mid 20's. Music, aspects of myself I tried to kill. I am still sifting through it all; the other night I had a bout of realizing how many of my choices in my art education and career, until a few years ago, were made from a place of self-deprecation and a diminished belief in what I could be. Now I am the artist and the person I originally thought I would be, and that person is fierce and takes a lot less shit, and pretty much only listens to heavy guitar noise now? It's soothing. Okay then off to paint comics about death camps while listening to Caspar Brotzmann Masaker! Love you all. @KurtisM I think you have a very bright future ahead of you in this and other teachings.

Edited by Leela Corman
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KurtisM

@Leela Corman I will keep your words in mind whenever I encounter struggles. It can be easy to assume they will all go away, but you are right: conflict still exists and will exist.

 

I am glad you have returned to your innocence! The 4th IM also has made me return to all of my old passions and projects and to fulfill them from a place of heartfelt love, rather than treat them as distractions from pressing responsibilities like I used to do.

Since Im on my side now, all of my previous passions have come roaring back (seriously, all of them) and I absolutely love just creating and exploring them without all the fear I used to have. It's beautiful. I no longer feel so fractured and splintered in my life. I feel wholesome.

 

Since I was young a lot of people have said that I was so smart and ahead of time, I'd "get somewhere in life". That never really made sense to me before, as I wasnt interested in traditional models of success.

With every obligation piling on top of me that urged me to grow up, my stubborn defenses grew deeper and I pulled myself into dark, ugly places that made me feel worthless and pitiful. It took me the last few years to dig me out of that mess, but now so much dirt and shit has been brushed aside.

So I finally embrace when people surprise me with phrases like "You have a bright future ahead of you." I get it because Im choosing it now, rather than waiting for that to happen, or assuming I will never get there.

 

Enjoy your cathartic comic creation!

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Luciana Flora
1 hour ago, KurtisM said:

Since I was young a lot of people have said that I was so smart and ahead of time, I'd "get somewhere in life". That never really made sense to me before, as I wasnt interested in traditional models of success.

I found what you said very interesting.

Because for most of my life I thought it would be great if they told me that....

Because what I heard most of the time was:

 

What's wrong with this girl?

 

Will she fail this year in school? (Especially at the beginning of my school life because I had some learning difficulties...).

 

Or after I graduated and spent years unemployed, my parents' concern was: Will she get a job?  Will she ever be able to support herself financially?  Will she always be dependent?

 

No one ever told me that I was ahead of my time... no one ever told me that I was too mature for my age....  I only listened to doubts about my ability...

 

 And I've spent over 30 years of my life trying to prove those voices wrong...

 but deep down I believed they were right... 

 

So I think one of the important things in my 4IM is to question these voices...  It shouldn't be so difficult after all, some of them have proven to be incorrect...

 

But in a way I find it surprising that someone who has heard the opposite of what I have heard may have problems with self-esteem or self-worth. 

 

 

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Edited by Luciana Flora
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KurtisM

@Luciana Flora that is interesting. I'd agree with you that the 4th IM is all about finding your Core Voice, or constructing a new supportive voice inside.

 

I think in your case, it's a matter of your Idealism having been shutdown into -Naivety, where you have all of these ideals you're comparing yourself to but don't know how to fulfill. All of those lofty comparisons led you to develop Self-Deprecation as the fear that if you don't fulfill those expectations, you will never be enough.

In my case though, my Pragmatism shutdown into -Dogma because I couldn't understand how doing what others told me to do in order to grow up, would actually ever help me. It didn't make sense because all those orders and demands didn't allow me to live in a way I thought would work better for me- so I resorted to Stubbornness and dug in my heels.

 

I did have moments like you though, where my parents were fearful I would not be able to grow up, get a job, be independent, be happy. I felt forced to grow up in ways that didn't feel good or right. That just added more fuel to the fire as I felt in constant conflict because I "knew" I could not be happy living only on their terms.

Ah 3rd IM, you still haunt me...

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Luciana Flora
20 minutes ago, KurtisM said:

In my case though, my Pragmatism shutdown into -Dogma because I couldn't understand how doing what others told me to do in order to grow up, would actually ever help me. It didn't make sense because all those orders and demands didn't allow me to live in a way I thought would work better for me- so I resorted to Stubbornness and dug in my heels.

 

I did have moments like you though, where my parents were fearful I would not be able to grow up, get a job, be independent, be happy. I felt forced to grow up in ways that didn't feel good or right. That just added more fuel to the fire as I felt in constant conflict because I "knew" I could not be happy living only on their terms.

Ah 3rd IM, you still haunt me...

I read this and I realize how differently we see things.

 

I honestly don't think I've ever been very clear about the difference between how I wanted to grow up and how my parents wanted me to grow up....

All I wanted was to prove that I was capable... all I wanted was to be seen as a capable person....

 

I guess during my growth I never really stopped to think about what I wanted.... 

 

I didn't care anymore whether I would love my job or not... All that mattered was to have a job and stop being a burden to my family.... I felt this way most of my life and it only started to diminish at the age of 30 when I moved to another city and got some financial independence... before that I couldn't see myself as anything other than a burden that just made my parents spend money....

 

That's why I think the best thing I did was to leave my parents' house... I really doubt that I would have any chance of starting to see myself differently if I continued living with them and being financially dependent...  I just started thinking that maybe I wasn't a burden after I left my parents' house...  That's why I say that my self-depreciation was really extreme...

 

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michael_k

@KurtisM and @Luciana Flora somehow I can relate to both of your stories even though they are different. There were times in my life where I felt like I was the intelligent one who had a bright future ahead of me and there have been other times where I felt like I was just a failure and a burden on society. I think one of my issues was that I had too much of a traditional and limited sense of what success could be, and when that success became unreachable, or I felt fatigued because that notion of success was not fulfilling to me deep down inside, I became very depressed and lost.

 

I feel like I've recovered from those feelings somewhat now, and I can focus on constructive hobbies again without the constant strain or guilt of not reaching milestones that I felt I should have before, and I can just take life as it comes. I think sometimes, or perhaps most of the time, in life, you have to build your own success and find out what it means to you, rather than just going with what the world tells you about it. This is probably especially true for Old Souls, as part of our learning here on Earth is to break through previously defined thresholds to find a clearer truth behind them.

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Juni
On 8/17/2019 at 4:58 PM, KurtisM said:

Since I was young a lot of people have said that I was so smart and ahead of time, I'd "get somewhere in life". That never really made sense to me before, as I wasnt interested in traditional models of success.

With every obligation piling on top of me that urged me to grow up, my stubborn defenses grew deeper and I pulled myself into dark, ugly places that made me feel worthless and pitiful. It took me the last few years to dig me out of that mess, but now so much dirt and shit has been brushed aside.

So I finally embrace when people surprise me with phrases like "You have a bright future ahead of you." I get it because Im choosing it now, rather than waiting for that to happen, or assuming I will never get there.

  I also grew up with "You have SO MUCH POTENTIAL! " and it always made me want to punch something. Doing what everyone else was doing seemed like slowly being buried alive by boredom. It took me a while to figure out that what I wanted to do was never have to bring a job home with me, "get ahead," engage in any sort of rat racy crap, or amass a bunch of objects. 
I once took a 'what career are you cut out for' test and found out that I had exactly none of the qualifications, motivation or drive to be successful in what I was currently doing. It was a real revelation to realize that the JOB was a bad fit, and not that I had to try harder . It set me in a completely different direction and a position doing something I actually liked.

Old Souls can seem very out of step and  unambitious, I think, until we figure out that we've "been there, done that" and the T-shirt everyone else is trying to model is probably unethically made and will fall apart upon closer examination.  However, we can make and dye our own.

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Luciana Flora
On 8/18/2019 at 5:08 PM, Juni said:

  I also grew up with "You have SO MUCH POTENTIAL! " and it always made me want to punch something.

I still think it's impressive.

I understood what you said... It's just that I never really imagined that anyone would bother with someone saying that phrase.

Because for me that phrase simply means that people believe in their potential...

I think it was because I interpreted the lack of that phrase as "no one believes in my potential... and if no one believes it, maybe I don't...". "


Maybe that's why I don't see some things related to the old soul... 

Because it seems that all I wanted was to be able to do things as everyone else does... because I interpreted not to be able to do things as if they made me less capable or inferior....

 

But really stop there which is not so with most old souls...

 

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michael_k

@Luciana Flora it might be a cultural thing as well. In countries like US, UK, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc. it seems to be common for parents and older people to emphasise the potential of young people, sometimes to the point of creating cynicism as the young realise that they may be getting set up for false hope, or herded towards a particular goal which may not be that fulfilling to them.

 

It can be a slap in the face also when someone grows up and that 'potential' is not reached, and the people who initially praised them seem to express regret at ever believing in that person, as if they were spoiled for being told things that they had never asked for, when in truth it would probably have been better to have been given actual solid advice instead of something similar to "You are so great! Life is going to work out for you!" when that might not necessarily be true.

 

What I've described seems to be an issue with a lot of people in my general age group (the so-called 'Millennials', born from around 1980-2000), although I haven't experienced it as harshly as some.

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Luciana Flora
5 hours ago, michael_k said:

@Luciana Flora it might be a cultural thing as well. In countries like US, UK, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc. it seems to be common for parents and older people to emphasise the potential of young people, sometimes to the point of creating cynicism as the young realise that they may be getting set up for false hope, or herded towards a particular goal which may not be that fulfilling to them.

 

It can be a slap in the face also when someone grows up and that 'potential' is not reached, and the people who initially praised them seem to express regret at ever believing in that person, as if they were spoiled for being told things that they had never asked for, when in truth it would probably have been better to have been given actual solid advice instead of something similar to "You are so great! Life is going to work out for you!" when that might not necessarily be true.

 

What I've described seems to be an issue with a lot of people in my general age group (the so-called 'Millennials', born from around 1980-2000), although I haven't experienced it as harshly as some.

Thank you for that answer because now I understand better


@michael_kI think my difficulty in understanding is simply because my experience is completely different...


I remember countless times when I was criticized, but I don't remember a single time when I was told that I had potential for something..

 

The first time  I was prazed came out of the family when I was about 24 years old and started writing a blog... and many people praised... which was a total surprise to me...


I think my mother really never knew how to express her frustrations with me in a healthy and constructive way....


I remember one time my parents gave a ride to a classmate... on the way this classmate took a call from her mother... and when she got out of the car my mother said, "You saw how polite she was to her mother...."I don't remember everything she said but it was very clear that she was comparing the way I treated her to the way my classmates treated her mother and that she thought I treated her badly compared to this classmates treated her mother...and I was just standing still at that moment...doing absolutely nothing... 


Or when my mother saw the draft of an essay I had made for school...and she went into my room to criticize the essay...she said it was horrible and that I should have shown it to my father to review before it was delivered...and she said she wouldn't even show it to my father because he would be upset to see that essay and that she would be ashamed to show it....  And I was wondering what would be so bad about that essay... and the amazing thing is that the note was good....

 

So I don't know if it's a matter of culture... it was more the way I was raised

 

The interesting thing is that my sister for example I think she had a very different experience even though we had the same mother.

Because my sister got along more positively... she danced super well ballet... she was praised in school from the beginning.... Everyone thought my sister was more mature for her age... not just my parents....

 

My mother seemed to need to talk about how well my sister danced and won ballet awards... and how mature she was... even that was said on my college graduation day....

 What's interesting is that my sister was never super happy about it... she used to say that my mother talked about her life to everyone and she didn't like it....


I really have no idea how my sister felt about it... we never talked about it... but based on what you said, maybe it wasn't as amazing to her as I imagined.... IoI 

 

 

Edited by Luciana Flora
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Leela Corman

The phrase "you have so much potential" was wielded at me like a weapon by my parents and most memorably by my first painting teacher, who actively wanted to stop me from becoming a painter, because I was really good, and she didn't like that. I was the best in the class. I can say that now. And she succeeded. She played a huge role in the broken relationship I had to myself as an artist, which is all I have ever been, to art itself, and to my entire life plan. I let her scare and hurt me. I learned a lot about what not to do as a teacher from her. 

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Juni
1 hour ago, Leela Corman said:

The phrase "you have so much potential" was wielded at me like a weapon by my parents and most memorably by my first painting teacher, who actively wanted to stop me from becoming a painter, because I was really good, and she didn't like that. 

Yes, it was a way to apply extreme social and academic pressure with an implied threat to "fit in or else." Also, I'm  sorry she did that @Leela CormanC

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Luciana Flora

 I keep wondering if my sister ever felt pressured... I really don't know... 

My family doesn't usually talk a lot about feelings.... Then I only know what I felt...


and with me everything was a surprise... I didn't repeat any school year was a surprise... I got a job was a surprise...

 

There was a concern from my parents that I was "not growing up" so when I was 15 years old there was a time when due to a nostalgia I started listening to some children's songs again and my parents thought it was a sign of immaturity... I just stopped listening or hiding because of it....

 

But after the comments here I imagine that feeling pressured to be successful shouldn't always be pleasant at all... in my case my success was a surprise... even for me.... IoI

 

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michael_k

@Luciana Flora, @Leela Corman and @Juni there have been a lot of different experiences discussed in the last few posts and somehow I can relate to all of them somewhat, whether they are about being considered the 'success' that was pressured to achieve or the 'struggler' who was looked down upon and never thought of as achieving anything. I think this is because although I was academically strong most of the time, I have had trouble with social and emotional issues concerning fitting in at school and in life as well as having to attend therapy for a depressive breakdown when I felt lost and couldn't cope.

 

There are times where I have honestly felt smart and stupid at the same time, and clung on to whatever academic attainment I could muster at the time and defined my identity on it, because without that, I felt that I'd have nothing left. I'd just be the weird, nerdy kid that doesn't fit in, and it hurt when I graduated from University and had difficulty even finding a basic job due to lack of transport. Oddly enough, that experience broke down a lot of false beliefs I had about myself and what everyone else told me I should be, and I got into my own self-discovery path, which includes TLE and learning and taking part in things I actually feel passionate about. There have been a lot of steps along the way, but I feel like I'm closer to the light at the end of the tunnel than I was back then, or would have been if I didn't 'screw-up' so to speak. I think I needed to experience the other side.

 

One thing that may have coloured my experience in this regard is the fact that I'm an only child. Parental opinions of only children can sometimes swing every which way. You'll be the golden child, the scapegoat, and the forgotten one all at the same time or in alternating turns in a way that's sort of hard to explain if you haven't known what it's like. It can be difficult also when you have two parents with completely different judgements about the world, and both of them like to shove it down your throat. You can never win in such a scenario, you can only ever pivot, or side with the more sane parent.

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Evelin
23 hours ago, Leela Corman said:

The phrase "you have so much potential" was wielded at me like a weapon by my parents and most memorably by my first painting teacher, who actively wanted to stop me from becoming a painter, because I was really good, and she didn't like that. I was the best in the class. I can say that now. And she succeeded. She played a huge role in the broken relationship I had to myself as an artist, which is all I have ever been, to art itself, and to my entire life plan. I let her scare and hurt me. I learned a lot about what not to do as a teacher from her. 

 

Sorry you had to struggle with that, Leela and Juni.

I often heard a variation of this: "You can do anything you set your mind to" (so why aren't you doing what we think you should be doing).

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Luciana Flora
8 hours ago, michael_k said:

@Luciana Flora, @Leela Corman and @Juni there have been a lot of different experiences discussed in the last few posts and somehow I can relate to all of them somewhat, whether they are about being considered the 'success' that was pressured to achieve or the 'struggler' who was looked down upon and never thought of as achieving anything. I think this is because although I was academically strong most of the time, I have had trouble with social and emotional issues concerning fitting in at school and in life as well as having to attend therapy for a depressive breakdown when I felt lost and couldn't cope.

 

There are times where I have honestly felt smart and stupid at the same time, and clung on to whatever academic attainment I could muster at the time and defined my identity on it, because without that, I felt that I'd have nothing left. I'd just be the weird, nerdy kid that doesn't fit in, and it hurt when I graduated from University and had difficulty even finding a basic job due to lack of transport. Oddly enough, that experience broke down a lot of false beliefs I had about myself and what everyone else told me I should be, and I got into my own self-discovery path, which includes TLE and learning and taking part in things I actually feel passionate about. There have been a lot of steps along the way, but I feel like I'm closer to the light at the end of the tunnel than I was back then, or would have been if I didn't 'screw-up' so to speak. I think I needed to experience the other side.

 

One thing that may have coloured my experience in this regard is the fact that I'm an only child. Parental opinions of only children can sometimes swing every which way. You'll be the golden child, the scapegoat, and the forgotten one all at the same time or in alternating turns in a way that's sort of hard to explain if you haven't known what it's like. It can be difficult also when you have two parents with completely different judgements about the world, and both of them like to shove it down your throat. You can never win in such a scenario, you can only ever pivot, or side with the more sane parent.

@michael_kI really liked your participation in this post because you are helping me to understand the other side of the story...

Because I've always been so criticized for everything that I really imagined the person would have a wonderful life. IoI

I found a text that talks about critical parents... I'll put the link here if anyone wanted to see... and talks about two types of messages, let's say... one is: "You have to be perfect" and the other is "everything you do is wrong".

And even though it's unintentionally the message I've received is that everything I do is wrong. 

I always had the feeling that most likely was that I failed at everything I tried ...


 And even when I started getting good grades in school I didn't think I was smart...  Because I seemed to have to study three times as many other people to get the same results... and as I said my parents were surprised when they saw that I really had not failed any school year....

Then I felt like a geek who wasn't smart...with bad social skills and who couldn't get any friends....

I doubted that one day I would get a job because I doubted that I would pass job interviews...because I didn't have sociability and communication that are highly valued these days...so even going relatively well at school I was not confident about my future.

Fortunately these negative prophecies proved to be wrong...


I intend to talk to Michael about these things... from what I've observed most of them here it seems that it was your case that you have to be perfect.... 


Sometimes it's hard for me to find people who relate to some of the things I've experienced.  Especially when it comes to isolation and total lack of self-confidence (which fortunately is better). So I'm very happy to have money to pay for my sessions because some things hardly other people would ask... because they seem to be exclusive to me. IoI

 

Here's the page I found  about critical parents:

 

https://screenwritingumagazine.com/2017/10/10/overly-critical-parents-probably-overly-active-inner-critic/

 

 

Edited by Luciana Flora
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