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Troy

ENERGY REPORT: November 2018

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Evelin

I've noticed something strange in my time of being a vegetarian/vegan.

I don't usually bring it up in social situations, but when asked at a party why I won't eat what's offered, I find people accept my choices easily when I say "I'm lactose intolerant" or "Meat gives me indigestion". In other words, when my reason is that *I AM* uncomfortable, people accept it with no questions and may even feel bad for me. When I explain I don't like other creatures to be made uncomfortable for my food, that it harms the planet (along with the humans on it) etc, there is a silent wall of resistance and people consider me weird.

What's weird to me is that being selfish is accepted and normal. Caring is OK if I care for myself, my child, for other humans -- when I buy local food or fairtrade etc. But as soon as I am willing to take some discomfort (not having as much to eat at a party than others do) so that other creatures don't have to suffer discomfort, or when I explain growing animals for food is making HUMANS uncomfortable (climate change, health), then it's odd, suspicious and makes people uncomfortable -- because why would I care about anyone beyond my immediate circle. I find this bizarre.

 

I was re-reading Geraldine's project and this quote from Michael stood out in light of recent talks about the IS:
"The Infinite Soul is a nudge toward increased capacity to choose, not as an intervention that corrects choice, so while the seed is there, it may be ignored or rejected."

It is about time to expand our compassion.

 

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Luka

Thank you @Troy and @Evelin ! You said exactly what I'm thinking. I'm not only shocked, but also mighty pissed about how far people will go to not only defend their right to exploit and use animals, but also attack people who don't. I have seen people tell others that fruits are actually bad for people because omg fructose! Carbs! You will get diabetes from bananas! People really say this. Sick, obese people have asked from me if "I'm sure I get everything from my food", and I'm there like bitch, I'm in perfect health, you should be worried about your own eating.

 

Our bodys preferred fuel has been demonised in order to make people eat more animal fats, more animal protein and believe it is healthy. In my eyes this fuckery is just as big a scam as Trumps presidency.

 

I also experienced similar attacks when I stopped using alcohol, but because people at that time around me were pretty nasty, attacks where pretty nasty too. I was mocked and ridiculed for not drinking because normal people drink. I decided I'm not normal then and kept my head. Haven't used alcohol for 15 years, save a cider once a year in Christmas after all that chocolate. And because like attracts like, people around me tend to be non-drinkers nowadays too. I think the motivation behind attacks like this is that we make others feel bad about themselves just by living our own lifes in our own way. Deep inside many people know drinking is bad, and so is eating animals. We challenge the cognitive dissonance they so carefully keep up. They see us as  uppity people who just can't be normal and live in lie just like others. The most important lesson in Young Soul Society: Don't think about it! We challenge that. Reactive, unaware people have limited ways to deal with their feelings: Blaim others for them and project.

 

And I was waiting for this and now it happened! This literally saved my week.

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JeanneS

@Troy and others.

 

I do think that our food choices are very important to the health of the world and our fellow humans.  That said, I believe that one can practice mindful eating in a way that includes eating animal meat.  My body doesn't do well with no meat.  We eat vegetarian and vegan often (a few times a week), but my body craves meat.  My body, being celiac among other things, doesn't absorb nutrients in ways that I can get the nutrients like iron I need out of non-meat sources (believe me, I have researched the heck out of this).  I was a vegetarian for several years and a pescatarian for another several years.  I finally gave in a few years ago and started eating meat.  I am so much more healthy and happy due to that choice.

 

Factory farms are horrific for the animals and the planet.  And if that is the only place that one could get meat, I would absolutely avoid it.  Our family is quite mindful when it comes to what meat we eat and where we get it.  Being in Seattle, we have a lot of alternative options.  We choose meat that comes from local family farms that take care of and slaughter their animals in compassionate ways.  We only eat grass-fed (and grass-finished) beef.  We only eat poultry from farms that allow their birds to free range.  We eat wild fish instead of farmed fish.  We have our own chickens as pets (in our urban back yard), so we have a never-ending supply of organic eggs from happy chickens.

 

For fruit and veggies, we grow our own and we buy from local, small farms that use organic practices.

 

All of these choices, I believe, are good choices for us and for the planet.  We, as humans, are designed to eat meat.  And some bodies need it.  Some don't.  I believe the choice to incarnate into a body that needs meat is a choice to eat it--and a challenge to eat it in ways that are good for humans and good for the planet.

Edited by JeanneS
clarification
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Luka
10 hours ago, JeanneS said:

@Troy and others.

 

All of these choices, I believe, are good choices for us and for the planet.  We, as humans, are designed to eat meat.  And some bodies need it.  Some don't.  I believe the choice to incarnate into a body that needs meat is a choice to eat it--and a challenge to eat it in ways that are good for humans and good for the planet.

No, we are not "designed" to eat meat, and rest of that quote is a justification of a century if I've ever seen one. I'm done, thanksbye.

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Troy

Please know that this is not to attack you or judge you, but to just respond to some of these ideas and offer a different way of looking at them. I mean no offense at all, so I am trying to word these responses very thoughtfully. I want to show as much care and respect for you as a fellow student and human being, so I hope the love comes through even as I am passionate about helping people contribute less cruelty to the world. Based on what you said, please know that I do appreciate your efforts and they are definitely a step in a meaningful direction.

 

23 hours ago, JeanneS said:

That said, I believe that one can practice mindful eating in a way that includes eating animal meat.

 

I understand what you mean, but this is just to make ourselves feel better. It's a mind trick to help us avoid the truth. To the animals and the environment, our "mindfulness" means nothing. I always test concepts like these across a series of similar scenarios because if it is true in one instance, it should be true in all of them or most of them. Or it's probably not true. For example, if "mindfulness" is enough to excuse our enslavement, cruelty, murder, and consumption of animals, then it should also be true for other violations against life. Can we "mindfully" kidnap and murder someone? Can we "mindfully" destroy the rainforests? Can we "mindfully" litter? Can we "mindfully" oppress a people? You see what I mean?

 

23 hours ago, JeanneS said:

....slaughter their animals in compassionate ways.

 

I lovingly invite you to consider the cognitive dissonance required to say and believe that statement. There is no compassionate way to take someone's life against their will. Is there a compassionate way for someone to murder me? Can I take your life if I say please and thank you and knock you out first? Does it really make a difference that we plunge a bolt into a creature's skull before we slice their throat and drain them while hanging over a bucket? Does it make any difference at all to anyone but the consumer and marketing tactics? The animal is still a slave, suffers, and dies. Minimizing the suffering is lovely and all, but it is still slavery, suffering, and murder. Is there a compassionate way to enslave another person against their will and turn them into a product to be sold? These are just things to think about. We have to make the connection to our fellow earthlings before it makes sense just how disconnected we have been conditioned to be, and we can't slather comforting words like "compassion" over something so violating to another life.

 

23 hours ago, JeanneS said:

We, as humans, are designed to eat meat.  And some bodies need it.

 

This one comes up a lot from those who eat animals, but it is 100% scientifically and biologically and psychologically untrue. For one thing, we were never designed to eat animals. We CAN eat them because we are omnivorous and that contributes to our capacity to survive as a species, but we were never designed to eat flesh as a primary and persistent source of nutrition. Most people who "need" meat are addicted to it. They don't actually have to eat animal flesh or byproducts. It's very addictive, especially when you add the emotional, nostalgic, romantic, and social elements on top of the fat, salt, and sugars.

 

But let's say there really are "some bodies that need it." That would be something extremely rare, probably medically-diagnosed, and potentially related to life-threatening conditions. 99%+ of humanity is not in that condition so it's not a great argument. 

 

The bottom line is that we have a choice. Even if we think we "need" meat, the nutrients that are provided in flesh are easily resourced in other ways and it is just a matter of being willing to change our habits, addictions, and mindset... and heart.

 

Thank you for hearing me out. I hope this is just food for thought. I mean no offense. It's just that this is such an important subject.

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Troy
23 hours ago, Luka said:

Our bodys preferred fuel has been demonised in order to make people eat more animal fats, more animal protein and believe it is healthy. In my eyes this fuckery is just as big a scam as Trumps presidency.

 

I think we will look back on this age of animal slavery and see it in the same way we now look back on our centuries of human slavery and think, "what the fuck was wrong with us? How did we not know how wrong this was? How did we not collectively and conclusively revolt and help everyone?" Have you seen the movie CARNAGE, by Simon Amstell? I will post it.

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Troy

@JeanneS and @Luka and @Evelin and anyone else who needs a bit of humor as a path to compassion, check out this movie I just posted. It is brilliant. Sit back and enjoy. It is thought-provoking, hilarious, and profoundly poignant.

 

 

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KurtisM

@Troy ever since you posted that movie about an imagining of a future where people are going through intense therapy for their past choices of animal consumption, it lit up a lightbulb in me.

I do completely believe that scenario will happen as we exit Mature Level 1 and enter Mature Level 2 as a species. And I think that will happen in my lifetime, probably around the 2060s due to the upcoming impact of the Savior Generation and the shift to a Resource-Based Economy by the end of this century.

 

My Essence says Mature 1 is the process of learning SENSITIVITY and Mature 2 is the process of learning RECONCILIATION.

One of the biggest reconciliations we'll have to go through is with our treatment to all of the animals and the planet herself.

Also, if my theories on us collectively moving through Internal Monads is true, perhaps by the 2060s we'll be moving through the 6th IM of Mature Level 1. In the same way that we're closing out the incredibly painful 6th and 7th IMs of Young Level 7 right now.

Edited by KurtisM
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JeanneS

@Troy Thank you for your reply.  I was going to also tag Luka, but it looks like they have either blocked me or themselves from being tagged.  I am not fully clear on how this site works.  I have spent today mulling over my reply to you.


All I can say is that I eat meat (in small amounts) after years of research on the effects of meat on the human body, as well as listening to and knowing myself.  You mentioned that bodies that need meat are rare.  I would say my research and experience tells me that we are not so rare.


I have celiac disease, which causes me not absorb nutrients very well.  There are many other conditions where this is the case.


I will give you an example of what I'm talking about.  One of the nutrients that I and other celiacs don't absorb well is iron.  There are 2 kinds of iron.  Heme iron and Non-Heme iron.  Heme iron comes from animal sources.  And it is much more absorbable than Non-Heme iron.  Non-Heme iron is less bioavailable than Heme iron.  That is not a belief, it is a scientific fact.  For someone like me who absorbs iron badly in the first place, absorbing enough Non-Heme iron was not doable.  I spent many years getting iron infusions when I was a vegetarian because I was so anemic even though I was quite aware of my diet and the nutrients in it.


My experience tells me that I incarnated into a body that needs meat.  When I went off of meat, I did so due to intellectual and emotional concerns (i.e., not listening to my inner voice).  When I went back onto meat, I did so out of finally listening to and gaining a clear knowledge of my body and what it needs to function.  I am not addicted to meat other than I feel so much better when I have it.  Of interest, I have had psychics and medical intuitives tell me I need meat (this was during the time I was a vegetarian so I ignored them).  


I am not saying everyone needs to eat meat.  And, again, I am not advocating factory farms or eating meat 24/7.  I am Old 5, so maybe I will choose to incarnate into a body that can easily absorb nutrients when I get to the 6th and 7th levels, lol. 

Of interest, I was diagnosed as celiac at the beginning of my 4th monad.  That diagnosis radically changed my life.  It also led me to my life task and life work.  I now write gluten-free baking cookbooks.  Due to being the food business--and in the food allergy business--I am called to engage in this being vegan vs. eating meat discussion on a regular basis (because many people equate being allergic to something as the same as choosing to not eat something).  And I research nutrient absorption a lot--again, due to questions from my readers.

Speaking of movies,  you all might like (if you already haven't seen it) is Forks Over Knives.  It advocates for a vegan diet, as well.

 

 

 

 

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Christian

I am going to say something that will probably tick off several of you on here. 

 

Veganism is not cruelty free. 

 

Veganism as it is currently being expressed by many in the US is reliant on an exploitative system.   From the growing, harvesting, transporting, etc of the goods to your dinner plate, the system is inherently exploitative.  To be vegan, or vegetarian or just you typical middle age white dude behind keyboard who enjoy pepperoni on his pizza is to be reliant on this system. 

 

People are exploited.  People are treated cruelly in order to bring you whatever organic marketed product you prefer.   They are worked 12 or more hours a day in dangerous conditions and paid wages that can't buy more then the highly processed foods being eschewed by others.  

 

Farmers in Bolivia are resorting to monoculture of quinoa to partially satisfy the demand in the US.  Prices have gotten so high they can't afford to eat the very staple crop they are producing. 

 

Migrant farmer workers, already mentioned, also face sexual exploitation.  Many are here illegally and the farmers know this.  This in addition to facing deportation if they are caught and the abuses that are already documented to be happening in ICE detention. 

 

The system is cruel by it's very nature.   The system that ALL food production is reliant on is exploitative by it's very existence.  

 

If you try to claim that such and such product is "fair trade" or whatever.   

 

MARKETING. 

 

The system doesn't care.  The goal is profit.   

 

And if that profit can be won by convincing you something is produced in a non exploitative fashion, great they will do that.   

 

The work that goes into that food on your plate was not compensated for the full value of the labor that went into it.   Because of that farmers can't buy the products they produce.   

 

Factory farms, giant mono-culture fields,  the massive CO2 that is produced to ship foods around the world, the fertilizers and pesticides that go into all production of food stuffs.....yes even "organic" harm the environment. 

 

Yes there are many improvements that can be made to the system.  They will have to be forced by government action.   

 

My point is very simple.  The system is cruel.   Therefore, whatever choice you make in your dietary decisions is cruel by default.   If it helps you to sleep better at night knowing that a cow, pig or chicken didn't die for your food, that is fine. Great sleep tight.

Don't however wake up the next morning and exclaim that you are somehow a better person because you don't eat or wear animal products.  You are still causing harm to your fellow man because the system that you rely on for your meatless whatever is the same cruel and exploitative system that I do. 

 

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KurtisM

@Christian I don't have much time right now to comment on everything you wrote but I can tackle a few points:

 

1. Thanks for bringing up worker conditions. It is certainly important to talk about that because yes people are treated horribly to produce food. The whole food management system is terrible.

And I will validate what you say in that I too buy food that was likely produced under terrible worker conditions.

And I will also validate that I have not payed as much attention to those concerns. But that doesn't mean I can't, as I will bit by bit.

 

2. However, the fact that workers may be treated terribly is not antithesis to the fact that animals are treated terribly.

Working to alleviate one symptom of suffering does not mean you are ignoring or avoiding or even hurting another.

Working to alleviate one symptom of suffering doesn't mean there is not any more suffering.

You can care about both the suffering of human workers and animals.

But it is difficult and inconvenient in the current system we have. But it will get better and easier as we learn and do more.

 

3. There are certain people and parts within all of us that make choices simply to feel better or superior for their choices.

That exists within any movement. That is simply a part of growing up. And incidentally a part of the Mature Soul Age as it processes indignation.

 

4. The label cruelty free, implies that veganism and those who practice it are making choices that do not cause unnecessary and unavoidable suffering to the animals. It is cruelty free for them.

Yes there are still animals harmed just by us building agricultural systems. But most of the time, that is unavoidable. And perhaps with new technologies for food management that will also soon change.

Yes there are still humans harmed by the food system too. But going Vegan does bring relief and healing to a large part of the food system. A large part of the suffering is the animals we kill, the workers that kill and package them, the environment affected by that & the effect that has on our bodies.

 

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Juni

This is mainly my spouse speaking, but I agree and support their points:
 @Christian, if you can find someone claiming explicitly that all veganism is cruelty free, I would be surprised.  There are definitely more and less ethical ways to eat a purely plant-based diet -- you can imagine someone drinking goldschlager; it may be vegan but it is performative material waste and damages their health which may require professional help to repair. Likewise there are more and less cruelty free ways to eat omnivorously -- you could choose to make farmed krill the most complex animal in your personal food chain. You don't have to eat quinoa -- your implication to the contrary has me concerned that you are criticizing the image rather than the substance of veganism.

 

 

Is the "system" you are referring to capitalism? If so, you have independently come very close to a common observation -- there is no entirely ethical consumption under capitalism. A higher proportion of vegans would agree with this idea than non-vegans! Vegans want to change the system.
(Juni here-there are vegans who work to make sure the means of production and farming are also as cruelty free as possible-we don't eat quinoa at all, largely for the reasons described. Likewise, cashews and we also try to avoid things that come from far outside our area, within reason. It's not a perfect world, though. But that's no reason not to try at all. )

 

 

The work that goes into that food on your plate was not compensated for the full value of the labor that went into it.   Because of that farmers can't buy the products they produce.   

 

The work that goes into that food on your plate was compensated even less for the full value of the labor that went into it, because meat and dairy production require an order of magnitude more land and freshwater for the same amount of nutrients as in similar plant-based foodstuffs. Veganism is more efficient and is an essential tool for us to decelerate mass deforestation driven by the cattle industries in BRICS countries. Every criticism you list of a vegan diet is a criticism that makes non-vegan diets look even worse.

 

Here's a fundamental point @KurtisM didn't quite get to: what do you think cows eat?

 

Cattle feed doesn't grow on trees, it grows on the world's most valuable agricultural land, displacing poor farmers, driving desertification, and driving a tragedy of the commons. If you want people to be fairly compensated for their labor, if you want less suffering, reducing competition for land that can feed us is extremely important and veganism is one way almost all of us can contribute. You can even get plant-based heme iron. It's less efficient than the meat based variety, but it's improving constantly.

(Juni here again-I'm one of those (annoying to other vegans) people who just want people to eat less meat if they aren't ready to go vegan-it's not about ethical superiority -the world is on fucking fire and one way to materially and cumulatively lessen the damage done is to avoid factory farmed and animal based foodstuffs that need food and water of their own, transport, cleanup, etc. If you want to for your health, great. If you want to for animal welfare, great. If you want to for the environment, great.   It's also cheaper and your medical bills will probably shrink by a decent margin too.  But it's not perfect. How could it be?  But.
Eating less meat is better than eating a lot, and eating none is even better than environmentally, healthwise, in terms of household costs, and there is no more rationalizing or cognitive dissonance to deal with, either. A lot of vegans started out as vegetarians, and a lot of them changed their diets over time.
  And saying veganism is directly comparable in harm to, say, the keto diet or just the basic Western one because the means of production and sales is also a product of the larger society...well, no. Also, the longer I've been vegan, the more puzzling people's complacency about something that's easy to put into practice right away, better for you, cheaper, and adds up over time becomes, to me. )

 

I agree, government action is necessary.   Just because "the system" is cruel does not mean all actions within it are equally cruel. I wouldn't claim to be a better person, but I do think there are ethically preferable actions. Here's a video putting my points in simpler terms: (We don't totally agree with all the points here (or the makers of the videos),  obviously, but it does do a reasonable job of laying out the outright harm in hard stats.  Ideally, we'd like a much more vegan world, ourselves.)

 

 

Edited by Juni
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DianeHB
5 hours ago, JeanneS said:

One of the nutrients that I and other celiacs don't absorb well is iron.  There are 2 kinds of iron.  Heme iron and Non-Heme iron.  Heme iron comes from animal sources.  And it is much more absorbable than Non-Heme iron.  Non-Heme iron is less bioavailable than Heme iron.  That is not a belief, it is a scientific fact.  For someone like me who absorbs iron badly in the first place, absorbing enough Non-Heme iron was not doable.  I spent many years getting iron infusions when I was a vegetarian because I was so anemic even though I was quite aware of my diet and the nutrients in it.

 

Just to add to the iron discussion since I learned some really interesting things about the misconceptions of vegetarians/vegans not getting enough iron. It’s correct that our bodies absorb heme iron better than non-heme iron, but that’s not necessarily a good thing. The reason that non-heme iron is less “bioavailable” is because our bodies can regulate its intake, but it cannot regulate the intake of heme-iron. Iron is a pro-oxidant, meaning that it causes oxidative stress and inflammation in the body if we have more than we need. Intake of iron from meat is associated with higher risk of heart disease and stroke. Vegans might have lower iron levels than what is “normal” for meat eaters, but this is actually a good thing as long as there is no iron deficiency anaemia. This is of course not suggesting that someone who has problems with anaemia shouldn’t do what they need to do for medical reasons, but studies have shown that vegetarians eating a balanced diet are not more at risk of iron deficiency anaemia than the general public. 

Edited by DianeHB
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Troubadour

I’ve heard both sides of this discussion before. Apparently it depends on which expert you ask.

It is possible that imprinting affects outlook. Why don’t we seek the counsel of a mid causal entity? 

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Sky Goldy

You eat meat,  or  in other words, you eat the corps of cruely murderd animals from Latin anima- and they have a soul too. How can this be  good?  

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Troy
16 hours ago, Christian said:

I am going to say something that will probably tick off several of you on here. 

 

Veganism is not cruelty free.

 

I don’t think it will tick anyone off, especially those of us who are vegan. Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals (human and non-human) for food, clothing or any other purpose. Vegans and animal/human rights activists are well aware of the chain of exploitation that is built in to our supply systems. We know we can’t be 100% cruelty-free or harmless if we are a part of modern society, but we seek to exclude as far as is possible and practical all forms of exploitation. We have people and campaigns working on changing the system for humans. We can easily focus on all angles of exploitation while prioritizing the elimination of the most devastating.

 

The argument for us to stop trying to do anything because we can’t do everything isn’t a very rational,  compassionate, or practical philosophy, so please don’t stop trying. Most of it, we can avoid by choice. 

 

16 hours ago, Christian said:

Don't however wake up the next morning and exclaim that you are somehow a better person because you don't eat or wear animal products.  You are still causing harm to your fellow man because the system that you rely on for your meatless whatever is the same cruel and exploitative system that I do.

 

This a common misconception and projection of many carnists. Vegans usually don’t think they are better than you. None that I know of, at least. We want more and more allies and support. This isn’t a competition. We just want a better world for all of us. When people were fighting to end slavery, they weren’t thinking of it as a status symbol. Ethical Vegans are carrying the weight of the world on their backs. It is an incredibly painful and difficult position to be in because we are surrounded by people who don’t care.  And many of those people are our friends and loved ones. It is depressing and infuriating and overwhelming to know the urgency of necessity for us to care enough to make the connection, but still have to endure ridicule, mockery, irrational arguments, excuses, dismissal, and accusations like we think we are better than others. If you meet a defensive or militant vegan, remember that they are fighting the good fight. I know all of us would rather be an angry abolitionist than a peaceful slave owner. It’s no different for those of us on the front lines for furthering the circle of compassion to all of our fellow earthlings.

 

We don’t want to be better than you. We want to be better with you.

As for whether we are a better person for being vegan, how could we not be? We are actively, intentionally, and willfully seeking to exclude exploitation and cruelty as far as is possible and practical. How could that not make you a better human being, even if we have a lot more work to do? It's a huge start! 

So go ahead and be a better person. Not better than others, just better than we once were when we didn't know any better.

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Troy
20 hours ago, JeanneS said:

My experience tells me that I incarnated into a body that needs meat.  When I went off of meat, I did so due to intellectual and emotional concerns (i.e., not listening to my inner voice).  When I went back onto meat, I did so out of finally listening to and gaining a clear knowledge of my body and what it needs to function.  I am not addicted to meat other than I feel so much better when I have it.  Of interest, I have had psychics and medical intuitives tell me I need meat (this was during the time I was a vegetarian so I ignored them).  

 

I think this is the key to your defense of eating animals. You just want to. That's okay, but... that's the simple and most obvious explanation based on this paragraph.

 

I'm not equating your choice to eat animals to that of the choice to enslave a people, but people in the past also found scientific and spiritual reasons to justify slavery. It made them feel better, too. And people around them supported the notion and reinforced the beliefs. When we find ourselves shoring up justifications for harming and taking another life, I do think it's time to truly question our rationale or intuition. All of this makes perfect sense when we do not see other earthlings as equal in their right to exist on their own terms.

 

No one is "born to eat animals." And eating only a little bit of meat still requires a whole animal to die for it. Surely there are heme-based iron supplements that help minimize or eliminate the need to harm animals. No?

 

I think if you can make the connection one day, you will see things differently. It is a very different world of logic and intuition on the other side of making that connection. 

 

I do understand your position and thank you for being patient with this conversation, but I do hope you haven't written all of this off as something to tend to in another life. This life can make a difference, too. Thank you for whatever you do to make a difference.

 

I do want to ask that even if you have to justify eating animals, maybe you can help reduce providing leverage for others to excuse themselves from considering compassion. Discussions like this about a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a population that may or may not have medically-specific demands shouldn't be showcased as a way to help others dismiss the very real importance of making better choices. 

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Stickyflames

I eat a vegan diet.

Lately it has turned me on to be willing to be completely “ wrong” about all of it.

Listen to the arguments against it and acknowledge that It is possible that I am very naive. I am still waiting to hear one argument against moving in the direction of veganism that resonates with me. 

 

“We can not possibly produce enough veganic soil to create a vegan world. The soil we need for the vast amount of people we feed 100 percent depends on animal products” .....No idea. Something to look into. Could be right. Why does this obstacle take away from the fact that I am safe, I have choices and I can choose to reduce harm as best as possible from where I stand today?

 

” My body just needs it. When I eat vegan, I feel bloated and awful. I feel tired and weak. When I eat meat, my digestion is fine and I feel good again”.  This is probably true for a lot of people. Switching to a plant based diet works for a lot of people but for others it can have obstacles. If you are interested, ask for help, dive into the details of nutrition. It is not just as simple as switching vegan for some people with digestive or specific health issues. Your health matters. Feeling good in your body matters. If you are someone who has digestive issues when eating a vegan diet ( which greatly increases fiber and sugar intake, which not everyone can handle without nutritional guidance and some selective eating that can feel pretty limiting for awhile) and you are also someone who is not interested in doing any research, then go back to the way that felt better. I just invite you to not state that a vegan diet made you feel like shit, it was most likely certain foods within the vast dimension of plant foods that triggered you or that you ate foods that did not cover the range of the bodies nutritional needs. There are plant solutions and again, for some people, this might be an obstacle for a bit as you transition. For myself, it is worth the investigation. It is never veganism that is the problem, it is lack of knowledge in terms of nutrition. If that is too much for you, i understand, just own that you want to return to meat rather than discourage others from veganism. For the vast majority people do very well on a plant based diet.

 

” Life is about balance, we can not ignore that we must take from life to be alive. There is always a shadow to the light. We can have a respectful relationship to the animals we kill for our food.”

This was true once. When we had to eat animals to survive, a deep respect was given to the animals that were eaten to keep us alive. What is wrong with this? If I was in a survival situation, I would eat an animal. I like being alive and would be reasonably selfish in such a context. To kill something when we are not in a state of survival, when science 100 percent backs up a plant based diet, when the options are abundant....where is the respect in this context? You can pray and be grateful all you want  but that does not take away from the truth that an uneccessary action just took place. We can rationalize and be grateful for basically anything we want but, for myself, I find the truth more appealing than my feelings and personal beliefs.

The truth being that many of us do not need to eat animals.

The truth being that we are brought up in a world that says otherwise.

The truth being that most doctors and nutritionists are also brought up in the same world.

The truth that many places need to eat meat at this moment in time for the context they are in.

The truth that it is our nature to steer away from harming others when we feel safe enough to do so and many are making that choice. 

The truth that every argument I have heard for eating meat has a spiritual tinge to it, is belief based and sees any obstacle as a sign that the whole path of veganism is UNNATURAL.

The truth that we can choose to steer away from harm as best we can from where we stand and continue to do this for eternity.

Edited by Stickyflames
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JeanneS

FYI: I am withdrawing from this conversation.  I didn't realize that this was a place I would be proselytized to (I can get that at my neighborhood church).  I have been a student of the Michaels for 35+ years and they say, "there is no right or wrong, only choice."  I guess maybe the Michaels told you all personally that this is not the case--that there is right and wrong and they were just joking when they said that all is choice and learning--but that is not the lesson I got from them. 

 

I will admit that I would never have thought I would be in a conversation with Michael students where I am called a murdering, non-compassionate, deluded, clueless-about-my-own-body person.  Wow.

Edited by JeanneS
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Stickyflames
1 minute ago, JeanneS said:

FYI: I am withdrawing from this conversation.  I didn't realize that this was a place I would be proselytized to (I can get that at my neighborhood church).  I have been a student of the Michaels for 35+ years and they say, "there is no good and bad, only choice."  I guess maybe the Michaels told you all personally that this is not the case--that there is good and bad and they were just joking when they said that all is choice and learning--but that is not the lesson I got from them.

 

I will admit that I would never have thought I would be in a conversation with Michael students where I am called a murdering, non-compassionate, deluded, clueless-about-my-own-body person.  Wow.

I don’t think anyone is attacking you , Jeanne. 

There are a few people here who really care about animals and choosing another way.

It is not about good or bad, just choice. I agree. 

It is fair to question choices, debate choices, speak up for choices, encourage choices. You still have your choice in the end. 

Is it possible to debate a choice that is so personal and intimate in our lives, such as food, without someone feeling hurt? I don’t think so. When it comes to speaking for the rights of another life, compromise is off the table.

This debate will never end with “ I respect your choice”,

but it can end with “ I see your point” , “ i see that you care” , “ I know you are doing what is best for you” , “ I see that you are an equal to me, therefor I respect you enough to be authentic with you”.

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WolfAmethyst

Does anyone have any favourite vegan / vegetarian recipes (which are also nut-free) that they'd be willing to share?  

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Bobby
3 minutes ago, WolfAmethyst said:

Does anyone have any favourite vegan / vegetarian recipes (which are also nut-free) that they'd be willing to share?  

 

WolfAmethyst, since this is the Energy Report discussion, it might be more useful to use the Club already created for recipes and such:

 

https://our.truthloveenergy.com/clubs/1-circle-of-compassion/

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Sky Goldy

FWI, Jeanne, this is not about you, it is about  ethics and choice, at the end the love you give is equal to the love you get.

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Connor

"All is Choice" is the starting point of the teachings, not the entire teaching. There is more. Michael may have said there is no Right or Wrong, but they have spoken at length about the truth of consequence.

As we wake up in life, we see ourselves in more of the world, and as a result we become more aware that our choices have very real and direct consequences on the rest of the world. Whether or not one assumes the responsibility of creating choices that yield less harmful consequences on the world, that is where 'All is Choice' enters into the equation, and the extent to which we embrace our kinship with the rest of the world is the extent to which we can assume that responsibility.

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Luka

Ok, I have to chime in once more. First, person can debate all they want about how it does or doesn't matter in bigger picture of this world if you make this or that choice. That your choice is just a drop in wide ocean and so doesn't really mean anything. That is fine and all, but you live YOUR life, and that is the ONLY life right now where you can make choices. This is a hard lesson I learned as recovering codependent, and a lesson too few people get: You are responsible for your own life and choices, not for the lifes and choices of other people. It matters what you do in YOUR life, because that is the only life where you can do anything. You can't go into someone elses life and do something there. If you would be the only person in the world to do the right thing, you have to do it because you live your own life. Not getting that lesson also leads to projecting and justifications and all the whataboutims you have seen in this conversation too. There is nothing here I haven't seen dozens of times before and it gets mighty tiring. I just expect someone coming and telling me there is only two genders and they themselves identify as Apache Helicopter so I would really feel like I'm at home in Internet.

 

So yes, everything is Choice, but some Choices lead to better situation and some to worse. It is up to you which one you follow. I have done horrible Choices, and boy wouldn't I like to go back in time and fix them. It is naive to think that all Choices are equal. They are all egual learning experiences, because learning from shit choices is valid for Essence, but is it really valid way to live for YOU? Some Choices simply lead to suffering. Why an Earth would you choose the Choice that leads to suffering if you can avoid it because you have the knowledge to choose a different path? It is a Choice to jump from a cliff 100 meters down, but should you choose to do so? It is choice to shoot yourself in the head when you are depressed, but Old Souls won't likely do it, because surprise, we already know that it is a BAD choice. It is a Choice nevertheless, and you can defend your right to shoot yourself in the head. Heck, I've kept that option very open for myself at some point in my life yet deep inside I knew it would be not only bad choice, but useless too because there is no escape. So maybe don't make a Choice that just leads in more suffering.

 

Second, Michael has spoken against eating meat. This was in the old TLE, and I remember it very vividly. I was still eating meat at that time, I went between being a vegetarian and eating meat, not because animal products made me feel good (they made me feel like shit and gave me horrible stomach problems) but because men always managed to find their way into my kitchen and my fridge and demanded sausages and milk and I was still weak and submissive.  So, this was in an open questions-channeling if I remember right, and Michael said that older souls begin to feel aversion to meat (I don't remember if they said anything about other animal products) and that aversion should be followed because we shouldn't eat meat. Not eating meat is the right thing to do. Some people revolted against this message, and I remember they said that LOL, there will never come a day they stop eating meat no matter what Michael says.

 

My take on this is that as older souls, we have greater capacity for compassion and so we simply should know better than exploit animals. I can only speak from my own experience, but I find even the idea of eating meat as repulsive now. I have no idea how I could do it for so long. I have no idea how I could put my body through it. I thought opting out from dairy would be hard, but it cured most of my stomach issues so no, I don't miss cheese and yoghurt. I never have any cravings for animal products.

 

When it comes to digestive issues, it is all about gut bacteria. If you have SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth), eating more animal products will help the symptoms...for some time. It is like putting a plaster for the problem, it doesn't cure it, you still have SIBO. It has to be taken care of. Meat eaters have all kinds of problems in their gut flora that will come out when the animal products are left out from the diet and more fiber is added to the diet.  Gojiman in Youtube has many videos about health and gut problems and they are awesome.

Edited by Luka
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