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Nicko

Why do we need to experience hell?

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Nicko

So I've been dealing with an existential question/crisis. I made a thread where this was mentioned in a slightly off-topic kind of way, so Im creating an own topic for it here.
That thread was basically about me being in negative pole of flow and resisting existence itself, as I learned with the help of some of our dear community members.
So I realize I will get out of this 'hell' I currently live in when I die, and hopefully sooner. I also think that once I get out of it, this question will not matter as much to me anymore.
But I still think my question is valid; why do we need to experience hell in our infinite existence.

So roughly put, my question is this.
Why do we, in our infinite existence need to suffer to such a degree that we wish we didnt exist at all. To such a degree were existence itself feels like biblical hell with the only variation being that we get to take a break from it from time to time.
And while I understand that I will find my way out of this hell eventually. Other people will always be in it. And I will later on in existence have to  go through it, again and again Ad Infinitum, and so will everyone else.
I understand that we have the choice to choose differently, but it doesnt stop us from experiencing it over and over and over until we learn to make that choice, then before long another grand cycle and it begins again.
I understand that we are ultimately safe, but it doesn't stop us from forgetting that fact and leaving us having to experience it over and over again.
So to clarify, I understand that this hell isn't permanent in a non-stop continous way like biblical hell is. But to me it very much seems that the only difference is that our hell isn't non-stop, but it is still a continous one.

This question has been tormenting me for a long time, because I simply can't even imagine what could justify the existence of hell in an infinite existence. I would think the #1 priority for such an existence would be to ensure that at the very least, one never wished to not exist.

If someone were able to help me find a satisfying answer to this question I would be so profoundly greatful. Because this question has been weighing on my shoulders like an obese great whale for a very long time.

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Miizle

I'll be interested to read what the community (and/or Michael) has to say about this. But, to begin with, I'm pretty sure some or a lot of our suffering is quite unique to a) This planet earth, b) Being Human, c) existing so heavily on a physical plane , none of which need to (or would even likely?) apply each grand cycle? So the whole notion of necessary experience of hell over and over again would not be correct?

(Hey, i damn well hope so!)

 

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michael_k

I think it's a lesson of contrast. If hell is unnecessary, then why experience bliss or ecstasy either? How could we learn to be grateful for, or love our own existence unless we first start off in a place where we wished we had never existed? All these things, while traumatic, help us ask some very interesting questions to ourselves about the worth of life and what it really means to us, and part of that questioning involves the pondering of whether or not life is evil, a mistake or simply worth nothing at all. You may never truly enjoy peaceful, normal existence unless you fully know the exact opposite feeling or what it's like to be devoid of that peace, and it's part of our life's lessons here on Earth to learn the joy and meaning of that peace.

Edited by michael_k
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NicholasV

An astrological perspective: it sounds like it could be a transit of Lilith in the 12th house. This is probabaly the trickiest placement of that influence. Basically your mind will be in very disturbed waters and the advice is you have an ability to reprogram your subconscious so you should try to do so harmoniously. Here’s a brief article about that astrological entity. 

 

https://theastrocodex.com/lilith-in-the-12th-house/

 

I think it genuinely has good advice and I know everybody experiences this at times.

 

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Bobby

I hear you saying this feels like hell but I don't accept that as a fact.  I find it to be more just your projections on life as you see it right now.  That's not good or bad, it's just where you are right now and that's ok.  But, remember, Michael has said that the final lifetime of any Old Soul Level 7 Personality always LOVES everything about being physical so at least be open to the fact that your perspective will eventually change.  Look at the lives of David Hogg (TS) and Emma Gozalez (IS candidate).  They absolutely love their time here and now.  Using your analogy, you could draw a similar conclusion by comparing the Causal to the Astral.  Why would any Entity fragment itself to endure a plane such as the Astral... talk about Emotional hell!  ?

 

You don't find happiness.  You create it.  Really examine your life under a truth magnifying glass.  Is it really all that bad?  Comparisons can sometime be helpful so look for others that have much less than you do and ask yourself "how can these people possibly be happy and yet they are?"

 

Your Essence can't experience the physical plane directly.  Therefore, you came to be in order to do that so that those experiences can be assimilated.

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Luciana Flora

@Nicko your questioning reminded me of this session

 

 

This session helped me to understand some things.
 

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Nicko

@Bobby & @NicholasV

I understand that I won't be in this hell forever, atleast not constantly. That I will create/find my happiness. Although a very personal question to me atm, Im not looking for a personal answer.
So it's not a question about what I can do to change my current situation. I got that covered in my last topic from yesterday, or atleast, some good advice that I will try out.

The question is, why does existence at time have to get so bad that you wish you didnt exist to begin with? For people like us, or me that is existence itself. For non-believers its life, in which case lots of people try suicide as a solution.(Don't missunderstand this example, I am not suicidal, I don't believe that would solve anything.) And be it that it is a projection, delusion or whatever name one can call it. The experience is there, I don't see how that changes.

And to clarify if there's some confusion. I do not mind fear, or pain or even suffering essentially. The only thing that I truly mind is when the fear, pain and suffering becomes so much that ones no longer wish to exist.
My definition of hell here is to feel trapped in an existence where you frequently experience so much difficulty that you wish you didnt exist at all.(In one moment, life, many lives, many grand cycles etc)
And be that a projection or whatever else name one can put on that fact, to me and other people who are experiencing such an existence it is a truth to us, regardless of how shortlived that truth may be to each individual, is that wrong?


@michael_k That could potentially make sense in terms of why, if that is the truth of it. But that would be a painful truth indeed if this is the case.

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Kasia

@Nicko, if your question is about why we suffer, Michael gave the following answer in a Michael Speaks called "The Power of Desire":

 

[MEntity] As you progress from your first life through to your last, this progression from pain/resistance to pleasure begins to become more and more pronounced and important.

[MEntity] In those early lives, Pain was not a "bad" thing because it was a part of simply learning how to live, be alive, survive, and often pain was one of the ways through which that was accomplished. "I fell off of a cliff. That hurt. Do not do that again."

[MEntity] In fact, the earlier incarnations become so dependent upon, and trusting of, pain as a form of navigation, that it takes one all the way through the final Levels of the Mature Soul Age to *really* get it that Pleasure can be trusted as much as Pain.

[MEntity] It could be said that to be an Old Soul is greatly about reversing this dependency upon Pain, and learning to trust Pleasure.

[MEntity] This is difficult when the world still imposes the imprinting that Pain is much more trustworthy, and that one's pain helps define him or her, and that if one has not suffered enough, then one is not deserving enough, and so on.

[MEntity] So the Old Souls can fall prey to this cultural imprinting, and do all they can to validate the meaning and value of their existence by suffering along with everyone else.

[MEntity] This is not to say that any suffering imposed upon an Old Soul is by choice. We are not speaking of those instances that are simply inherent risks of being Physical. Scathing of the bodies will always be a risk to any Physical incarnation, regardless of beliefs, conscious or subconscious.

[MEntity] However, some of the most mundane of challenges that the Old Soul must endure can often be buried in melodramatic suffering that is completely unnecessary and absurdly out of proportion to the challenge. If an Old Soul must "work for a living" along with everyone else so as to participate in the society and culture he or she is in, it does not have to be experienced as suffering. This suffering is not only meant to help falsely prove his or her worth in some way, but to make an empty statement of entitlement that caters to some idea that the Old Soul must surely be above those mundane demands.

[MEntity] So when it comes to the ENERGY of your life, our first suggestion posed to each of you would be that you ask yourselves how much Energy is used in the upholding of the unnecessary idea of SUFFERING as your primary defense of your value, position, and meaning in your life? How much Energy is used to undermine your mundane existence as if you should not be inconvenienced by the challenges of being Physical?

[MEntity] Pain is information. It is not bad. It is not good. It is information. It is an indication of Resistance. Resistance is not bad, nor is it good. It is a necessity for navigation. However, suffering is often the distorted version of PLEASURE.

[MEntity] Again, this is not to minimize or dismiss valid Suffering. We are speaking here of those many instances where a situation is compounded for the sake of a distorted form of Pleasure.

[MEntity] The reason many do this is because they have not learned to trust True Pleasure.

[MEntity] Suffering is the closest to Pleasure that fragment feels he or she can get.

[MEntity] Through Suffering, there can come many "benefits."

[MEntity] In most cases, that means the manipulation of others so that the one suffering can TAKE Pleasure, rather than having created it or given it or shared it.

[MEntity] Consider the child who is screaming and crying because he did not get what he wants.

[MEntity] For many, this method simply becomes refined when an adult.

[MEntity] In all cases such as this, and even in the worst of these cases, it is merely that this fragment is seeking a path of return to order, to safety, to peace, resonance, harmony, beauty, just like every other form or matter and consciousness in the universe.

[MEntity] And this method works. Until it does not.

[MEntity] Once it does not, there is a turning point, or a point of no return, if you will.

[MEntity] Eventually the universe no longer works very well for you in that way. Suffering begins to seem silly. It no longer serves to bring you even false pleasure. Taking Pleasure begins to feel ugly. And so the path toward creating and sharing Pleasure begins, and your Energy shifts.

[MEntity] That turning point tends to come in one lifetime or another, and sometimes several times across different lifetimes, depending upon one's Frequency.

[MEntity] Your access to all of that Energy that permeates all of the Universe, and was your path "here" and is your path "home," is no longer dependent upon navigation that is bound by the trust in pain or false pleasures, but begins to shift into a realization that true pleasure can be trusted, too.

[MEntity] Many of you are only now learning what it even means to know "true pleasure."

[MEntity] True Pleasure is simple. It is a sense of gratitude and appreciation for even the most mundane of your existence. It is a realization that even the most challenging elements of who and how you are things that simply make up a small part of the vast range of experiences one can have in a day, a year, a lifetime, or across lifetimes.

 

On a more personal level, it sounds to me like you're desperately trying to find the solution to the problem by focusing on the problem, rather than the solution. I think a better question to ask isn't "why do we suffer/endure biblical hell?" but, "how can we find pleasure/experience biblical heaven?"

 

Michael have stated that "evolution and creativity are at the heart of existence" and that the Triad of Positive, Negative, and Neutral are foundational to our experiences, because "if you were not living in a constant state of perpetuation, caused by imbalances, you would not evolve, nor would you enlist creativity" and we literally "ARE evolution and creativity, in the flesh."

 

I see your description of "hell" as a metaphor for the constricted experience of the Negative Pole. We will always cycle through the Triad, because it is who we are. We "endure" it, because the expanded experience of the Positive Pole is always worth it. But I get it. If hell is all you know, then yeah, I'd be asking "what the fuck is the point of this?" too. But it isn't all YOU know. Even in your darkest moments, there is more, if you choose to look for it.

 

If you're interested in doing deeper work around this, here are a few sessions that I think might help:

Michael Speaks TLEGG 2015 - 7 Metaphysical Strengths & Living Without Fear (especially the strength of Choice)

Michael Speaks TLEGG 2016 - The 7 Choices (especially to SEE MORE and to KNOW MORE)

 

Also, in your other post you said you think this relates to your Tertiary CF of Impatience, and while that may be true, I think you might be more successful in working through this by addressing your Primary CF of Arrogance. Michael once told me that one of my Arrogance blindspots is thinking that I "know better", but that "sometimes the point is to know DIFFERENTLY, not Better." Jana also had a great session about Arrogance and "being right" that I think could help. 

 

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Maureen

Great responses to your questions!!

 

@Nicko, this may help. Here's a link to my blog entry Dreams of Reunion ~ and ~ Astral Plane vs. Physical Plane -- and a short excerpt:

 

From a Private Live Chat on May 9, 2013  

 

Maureen:  Oh Yes! That ties into what I have been thinking about recently – the difference between the Physical Plane vs the Astral Plane for "accomplishment".

 

Maureen:  I was wondering why I was thinking about that so much.

 

MEntity:  Are you finding it difficult to imagine what "accomplishment" must look like in a less-tangible environment?

 

Maureen:  Yes, or if it is "real" enough?

 

Maureen:  or vice versa – why don't we just "do" what we need to do on the Astral plane – why be physical at all?

 

Maureen:  I'm wondering about what is "appropriate" where

 

MEntity:  This may help:

 

MEntity:  The Physical Plane is entirely unique in its density and sensation. It is the only Plane where "feeling" exists to such an intense degree, as emotion is processed through the body. It is the only Plane where matter is dense enough not to be affected so quickly by thoughts and emotion. It gives the individual "time" to experience the product of choice, reaction, feeling, action, thoughts, beliefs, etc.

 

MEntity:  Action and Matter are the primary media for the Physical Plane, while Emotion and Ether are the primary media for the Astral.

 

MEntity:  The Action and Matter are greatly reduced in solidity on the Astral so that emotions and thoughts shape into form quite quickly and easily in the environment, and there is no "feeling" as it is experienced while Physical. Instead, Emotion/Feeling is no longer contained to the individual body, but affects the environment drastically, and is shared.

 

MEntity:  If there were no lifetimes in the Physical where one learned the impact of choice and action, and the intimate, private process of Emotion, then the Astral falls into chaos and a kind of "hell."

 

Maureen:  So the Astral isn't an "elevated" Physical Plane – they are just "different".

 

Maureen:  Have I been trying to understand a paradox of sorts?

 

MEntity:  The Lower Astral "overlaps" with the Physical, where dreams are processed, and where the most chaos exists, and where the sustained "hell" is generated, etc. It is as "real" in terms of its sensation as any dream where one does not realize one is dreaming.

 

MEntity:  From where you are, the differences can be understood in this way:

 

MEntity:  If you are upset while in the Physical, it is contained within your skin unless you act out.

 

MEntity:  When you are upset in the Astral, it affects everything and everyone around you.

 

MEntity:  The key in the Astral is in learning how to manage emotion without the limitations of matter.

 

Maureen:  OK

 

MEntity:  In the Physical, this is accomplished by what you DO.

 

Maureen:  I see

 

MEntity:  The process is a matter of Doing. In the Astral, it is a matter of Being. It is a process of resonance that moves beyond individuation.

 

MEntity:  We cannot say all that we have to say on this matter at this point, so we point out here that our words above are only brief and incomplete glimpses of what we have to say.

 

Maureen:  So the older we get, in Soul age, the more we move towards Being while Doing, while still on the Physical Plane.

 

MEntity:  That is true.

 

Maureen:  I get that. ?

 

Maureen:  ...now

 

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Bobby
Quote

The Action and Matter are greatly reduced in solidity on the Astral so that emotions and thoughts shape into form quite quickly and easily in the environment, and there is no "feeling" as it is experienced while Physical. Instead, Emotion/Feeling is no longer contained to the individual body, but affects the environment drastically, and is shared.

 

Now THERE is a cause to stay Physical as long as possible!  LOL

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Jean Hamill

@Bobby Is the Astral so bad?

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Bobby
Just now, Jean Hamill said:

@Bobby Is the Astral so bad?

 

No, I was joking.  But imagine sharing an emotion like "Anger" when first arriving.  You might be avoided like the plague!  ?

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Jean Hamill

Shades of Geraldine Bobby!

 

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Eric

"Why does existence at times have to get so bad that you wish you didn't exist to begin with?" Short answer is, it doesn't have to, but we as individuals may end up there sometimes in some lives for a number of different reasons. Apart from Michael's explanations and theories on why we suffer in general, that specific question really does get down to the individual and their circumstances that determine the why.

 

There is no universal mandate that someone experience existence like that. Neither the universe nor essences nor any overarching power or design is actively conspiring or requiring that anyone experience that. Objectively harmful and brutal things do happen as a consequence of being a physical being in a physical world around other physical beings, but the clue that this question ultimately requires a personal answer is the involvement of the terms "wish" and "feel" in the question and explanation. Michael has said that feelings are not objective truth, but rather they are information/feedback about how you are relating to the world around. Feelings and wishes do affect an individual's experience and choices, and those effects are valid, but they are also always generated from and dependent upon that individual (and all the imprinting, past experience, choices, voices, etc, that make up that individual).

 

So to me, if one is feeling overwhelmed to the point of wishing they don't exist, that is actually a major feedback signal from the self say that something in life is off, resistant, or out of balance and needs a change, whether that's something external, something medical/biological, something perceptual/internal, etc...should that be chosen. Doesn't mean it has to be taken on alone, but it is something that is ultimately personal in nature.

Edited by Eric
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Connor

No one needs to suffer, suffering simply exists as a part of living life and bumping into things. A recent Infinite Soul started an entire teaching from that truth.

No need to fear hell after death, either, because it won't be anything new. If you wind up in hell after you die, it's because you were already in hell before you died. The difference is that after you die, you no longer have a beautiful physical body to act as a buffer between you and the contents of your own mind. Best way to avoid arriving in the afterlife in a spiritually impoverished state is to cultivate gentle and loving attitudes towards the self while alive on Earth.

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Christian
On 11/13/2018 at 5:44 AM, Nicko said:

Why do we, in our infinite existence need to suffer to such a degree that we wish we didnt exist at all. To such a degree were existence itself feels like biblical hell with the only variation being that we get to take a break from it from time to time.

 

Short answer is we don't "need to suffer".   We choose to. 

 

It is all part of learning. 

 

We learn better how to learn.   

 

It just sucks that we "forget" between lives and then when here, often have things thrust on us that were "not part plan".  

 

We can choose and we always have a choice. 

 

It can be hard to see past imprinting.  It is hard to see past yourself.  The painful path can seem easier because it more familiar, but if you have already learned everything down that path, what is the point. 

 

So choose to learn differently. 

 

not that I have any great wisdom on how to do that....

 

 

 

 

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Hjortur

I am a 4th level Old in Flow too 🙂 It was great reading all these answers to your question and the Michael Quotes WOW! 

 

According to Michael, I finished my 4th monad, three years ago. I went through the 4th monad in three relationships while loosing contact with three of my five children on the way. As I was coming out of the 4th monad, my mother and four other dear relatives died.  This period was extremely painful and might be described at times as being in hell.

 

I feel for you! It is not easy having this kind of existential angst. The realisation that this hellish feeling is ending is in you now or else you would not be writing this post. You are opening up with your suffering and that is the beginning of the end to your existential pain this life. Another building block for your future ones!

 

Will all of this repeat itself in later lives? Possibly and probably in some form or other but it will get gradually easier to navigate through it while on this side of existence. 

 

Your hell is real for you but it stops there because it is your personal hell and a product of your personality. Your hell can only be manifested in you and no one else. What others are feeling or describing as being tormented in hell, are their thoughts and feelings. It is not part of who you are and how you are feeling. 

 

Do we need suffering, this darkness in our lives? The tears are in my eyes as I reflect on those I'we lost but the sunset is so beautiful now... I'm in awe of existens itself and the love of the people in my life and life itself just fills my heart with joy!

 

Can we appreciate life without having suffered? It builds contrast but do we NEED need this dark background to reflect on the beauty of existence? I might be so... but however when experience gathered from many lives starts to accumulate or to be realised this might not be needed. Maybe, waking up one day screaming in annoyance of the bitter cold and then feeling your mothers waiting arms there once again, you will experience a life without suffering but resting on the base of prior sufferings. I will look forward to that but keep building on this base till then. Then you might want to take a look at this dark base of background, what is it really? What creates the goodies of life?

 

I know a way out of hell - Gandhi

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Martin
On 11/13/2018 at 6:00 PM, Nicko said:

The question is, why does existence at time have to get so bad that you wish you didnt exist to begin with?

 

Why does existence at time have to get so good that you wish you would be here forever?

 

The fact that we are choosing to  fragment ourselves into this existence where there are so much intensities that we may experience that kind of perspective where we wish we didn't exist at all. But a great comprehension comes from that. In these intensities we propel the evolution of ourselves, essence, all the way to the Tao, to a very high degree. It's and act of giving, and act of love which reflects our Truth of Being which is infinite love. This journey helps us grasp our true nature more than anything that I know right know

 

And we are Infinity, we are evolution. There is no infinity without constant evoultion.

 

I know it does not satisfy the Personality alone which isn't capable of Love. That's why it would help so much when you're aligning yourself with Essence, surrender to it,

and begin to see and experience  love more and more in everywhere, in everything.

 

Even if you hate some parts of yourself (such as the current parading we live in), It would do well if you acknowledge that your hate is a proof that you care so much about yourself, others, the world, and if you care that means that you love, so through that hate find your love, find your truth of being, and it will lead you towards a more peaceful state of mind.

 

May my perspective help you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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