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Troy

Revisiting My Positon on Trump Followers

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Troy

My heart goes out to everyone affected by this in New Zealand. And to everyone who has endured the effects of this man and his followers on our lives and communities. 

 

I drew a line in this community long ago and said that I would not welcome any Trump followers. A handful of members thought this was terribly unloving and unacceptable of me to declare this space a safe space from bigotry. But as the years have passed and people have been murdered over and over in the name of this man and his hateful ideology, I hope you can now see why we drew that line for this community. The toxicity of this man is spreading like an infection and it is reaching other countries. Even Canada. Even New Zealand!

 

THIS is why we can’t use new age righteousness and syrupy notions of “love”  to blind ourselves to real dangers and threats in our world.

 

THIS is why you should listen to people who are from targeted and vulnerable groups who speak up well in advance about how dangerous an ideology is and why we should draw clear boundaries of safety against it.

 

This is why we can’t pretend everything is ok and that if we just love enough we are untouchable.

 

This is why we can’t pretend Trump is just a passing American problem.

 

THIS is why I declared long ago that no Trump followers are welcome in any community I host.

 

This is real, people. This is not going away. 

 

Keep loving and being accepting and giving people the benefit of the doubt, but when you know of anyone who aligns with an ideology that inspires mass murder, oppression, inequality, racism, sexism, homophobia, hate, and violence, IT’s FUCKING OK TO SAY NO and to say it loudly. 

 

Otherwise, we are part of the problem.

 

https://nypost.com/2019/03/14/new-zealand-mosque-shooter-livestreamed-killings-on-facebook/

 

Excerpt:

In the manifesto, the gunman, who identifies himself as a 28-year-old from Australia, rages against “Islamic invaders” who are “occupying European soil.”

 

He offers support for President Trump as “a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose” but not “as a policymaker and leader.”

 

He also writes that he carried out the attack so that “the aftershock of my actions will ripple for years to come, driving political and social discourse, creating the atmosphere for fear and change that is required.”

 

EDIT: I’m including this important call to action for all White People. Please take this seriously. 

 

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Stickyflames

Thanks Troy.

Jeff Brown has been one of my favorite spiritual speakers in the last few years because he emphasizes everything you say above in terms of clear boundaries and waking up from the “ new cage” movement of total acceptance.

 

It’s amazing that even a child can grasp the reality of boundaries, speaking up against pain yet so many adults will find a million reasons to not be angry and say NO.

Love is not going to solve the problem of white supremecy or any supremecy.

It just wont. 

At least not the form of passive love thrown up as the common solution.

 

 I got to the point with veganism last month where I was so exhausted being so angry at everyone who refused any openness to the idea that we no longer need to kill animals for food in wealthy countries. I even fell into a hole, listening to all the arguments , really wanting to understand the other side. 

There must be SOME thing I am not seeing in terms of why so many choose harm when it is unnecessary. The scary thing is, I don’t think there is. Unquestioned belief is really the only reason any of us choose unnecessary harm. That is not a calming answer. It is an infuriating and almost hopeless answer because there are so many competing information sources to continuously fuel unquestioned belief for centuries to come. This is true for all unquestioned beliefs that lead to mass harm, a bounty of fuel constantly thrown in your face.

One thing I love about you Troy is that you constantly trigger that part of me that wants to accept all and live in peace.

You are always the one screaming “ There is a fucking fire here! Fuck!” while so many of us in spiritual circles focus on loving the fire and choosing to live around it.

 

All these beliefs that manifest in destructive harm are the fucking fire and it will consume us all if us calm spiritual folk don’t wake up and start saying NO.

 

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Stickyflames

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/02/23/p.c.-culture-vs.-the-big-joke

 

I want to post this article because it speaks to the passive “ We all need to lighten up. Accept. Embrace the joke of life” belief systems that are really the fuel for so much of this onslaught of violence. The “ Why so serious” culture is destroying us.

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Troy
4 minutes ago, Stickyflames said:

There must be SOME thing I am not seeing in terms of why so many choose harm when it is unnecessary. The scary thing is, I don’t think there is. Unquestioned belief is really the only reason any of us choose unnecessary harm.

 

It really upsets me how easily even the best of people can compartmentalize and justify perpetuating cruelty if it doesn't immediately affect them or if it is too inconvenient to think about. But what truly terrifies me is the people who don't compartmentalize and know full well the choice they are making to actively harm others and they do it proudly and violently.

 

5 minutes ago, Stickyflames said:

One thing I love about you Troy is that you constantly trigger that part of me that wants to accept all and live in peace.

You are always the one screaming “ There is a fucking fire here! Fuck!” while so many of us in spiritual circles focus on loving the fire and choosing to live around it.

 

😊 It's something people love or hate about me. Luckily, most of this community is on board and agree that it's better to call out shit even if it kicks up a stink rather than just force a smile and eat it.

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CurvyWords

@Troy I actually love your enthusiasm and seeing allies so engaged and frankly, pissed the fuck off, is a relief. I've gotten to such a shell shocked place with these things that sometimes I need you to come barging in yelling about stuff to really like, grasp what's going on. Thank you! 

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Troubadour

Walled compounds are great for safety. Once inside you will hear the views of those who agree with you and you will agree that all those outside the wall have it hopelessly wrong. This is what cults do. 

If evolution of the human spirit is of interest to you you may find it healthy to interact with those whose views differ from yours.  You might find some flaws in your personal world view and you might just impress someone who has a narrow minded outlook with the equanimity of your character and the strength of your argument.

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Troy
3 hours ago, CurvyWords said:

@Troy I actually love your enthusiasm and seeing allies so engaged and frankly, pissed the fuck off, is a relief. I've gotten to such a shell shocked place with these things that sometimes I need you to come barging in yelling about stuff to really like, grasp what's going on. Thank you! 

 

I am at the intersection of White/Male/Gay so I have a foot in two worlds with a weird mix of having to endure attacks, assaults, bullying, hate, violence, and a constant fight for my rights while also being from a disproportionately privileged demographic. I try to use those privileged parts of my identity to make as much of a positive difference in the world as I can. We vulnerable and targeted groups do a great job of stepping up, but we need our allies and I will always do my best to be an ally to anyone who will have me.

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Troy
3 minutes ago, Troubadour said:

Walled compounds are great for safety. Once inside you will hear the views of those who agree with you and you will agree that all those outside the wall have it hopelessly wrong. This is what cults do. 

If evolution of the human spirit is of interest to you you may find it healthy to interact with those whose views differ from yours.  You might find some flaws in your personal world view and you might just impress someone who has a narrow minded outlook with the equanimity of your character and the strength of your argument.

 

Wait, you do know there is a difference between refusing to host white supremacist ideologists... and creating a cult, right? I hope you know the difference. I'm not trying to be snotty. You compared our establishing healthy boundaries with establishing a cult, so I want to make sure you understand the difference.

 

This isn't about avoiding interaction with those whose views differ from mine. You say this like it's the difference between whether we prefer toast or prefer bagels. We are talking about an ideology that is entirely based on the active effort to destroy my life and the life of those whom I love. This is about saying no to White Supremacy and their supporters and representatives. This isn't about something vague that needs to be debated and discussed and to find common ground. This is about an established movement that wants everyone who is not Christian, White, Male, and Straight to be subservient or dead. You understand this, right?

 

Please do not make me have to explain to you why it is not my job to understand and accept into my personal space a person who supports an ideology that would rather have me dead. 

 

And if you are a straight, white, male... Please... PLEASE... consider listening and learning and not feeling compelled to interject from your perspective because you may really and honestly have no clue how bad it is and how important these lines are that need to be drawn. We are constantly hearing from straight white men how we need to settle down and how we need to behave and how we need to make things as convenient as possible... and that's not going to fly anymore. I say that with love, but the time of rolling over to the shaming and controlling is over.  Please take this suggestion and insight with love and compassion and understanding because I know you only meant well in your post, but please step back and ask if you truly understand what is happening and what is at stake here. Maybe ask questions instead of criticizing and commenting?

 

 

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Troubadour

I thought you were reviewing your stance on Trump supporters. 

Not all trump supporters are white supremacists are they?

What does my colour, gender and sexuality have to do with it? 

Here’s a few things you mightn’t know about me. 

My son in law is a Muslim. My four step daughters were raised in a cult. I went to catholic boarding schools, one of which had a priest convicted this week of pedophilia. Our best friends son transitioned to female last year. She is always welcome at my place.  I am the leader of a band who has a transvestite and an (ex) lesbian as singers. I am Australian. Not a trump supporter. 

I mention this things because you seem to have reacted to my comment as if it was a personal attack from someone who is all the things you despise. It wasn’t. It was offered with love. 

Here is something you do know about me.. I am a Michael student.

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Troy
13 minutes ago, Troubadour said:

 

I thought you were reviewing your stance on Trump supporters. 

Not all trump supporters are white supremacists are they?

 

 

In 2016? Maybe not. In 2017? Maybe they were conflicted. In 2018? They now know full well what Trump represents and what he emboldens and promotes. In 2019? You are 100% supportive  of White Supremacist ideology if you support Trump. So yeah. They are White Supremacists. 

 

14 minutes ago, Troubadour said:

I mention this things because you seem to have reacted to my comment as if it was a personal attack from someone who is all the things you despise. It wasn’t.

 

I hear you and I don’t despise you and I really don’t know if you are the average white guy who rejects understanding. I would think you are, but we’ve been surprised by a couple of members in the past. So I asked you to stop and listen because, regardless of your list of friends and family as credentials, you are still looking at this from the single most privileged and protected class on the planet.

 

The fact that you do not see how supporting Trump is a direct and conscious choice to support the emboldened assault against people of color, LGBTQIA+, immigrants, and women means you do have more listening and learning to do. Especially if your life is full of such diversity as it is. 

 

Asking vulnerable targeted groups to do the work of accepting their oppressors is not cool. 

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KurtisM

Hey @Stickyflames, I read through your article.

I'm not up to date on all the PC jargon, celebrities and pop cultural references, but I did definitely get the gist and appreciate you posting that.

 

This popped out to me:

"And if I can be honest, I feel likes it's this horrific symptom of the long-running "both sides are wrong" thinking that plagues modern debate. Because you don't look to the middle of any argument for truth. You look at the framing.
Because if the two "sides" are someone arguing for inclusiveness and someone being a manipulative asshat hellbent on your destruction, then what exactly are we meeting in the middle about?"

It probably popped out because my family often does this, and there was a recent discussion on how Scholars can be TOO neutral (which is really just a defensive and dismissive stance they use to avoid changing/knowing more).
I can extend the argument towards the sides formed by people standing up for ethical responsibility vs preserving convenient, familiar traditions.
It's so exhausting all of it, but articles like that help me find some clarity in this info rut.

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Juni
3 minutes ago, KurtisM said:


It probably popped out because my family often does this, and there was a recent discussion on how Scholars can be TOO neutral (which is really just a defensive and dismissive stance they use to avoid changing/knowing more).
I can extend the argument towards the sides formed by people standing up for ethical responsibility vs preserving convenient, familiar traditions.

I live with a Scholar and  I can attest to the "too neutral" which often can come off as concern trolling/whataboutism when it gets extreme.

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KurtisM
3 minutes ago, Juni said:

I live with a Scholar and  I can attest to the "too neutral" which often can come off as concern trolling/whataboutism when it gets extreme.

 

Interesting Juni, I can see how those may result from extreme neutrality that covers up a logical fallacy.

Whataboutism sounds like a dose of Arrogance too, as Arrogance never listens, it always feels accused and hides, or puffs up and accuses.
Concern trolling sounds a bit like Skepticism, as the -Pole Skeptic in social situations is said to probe you for info and then holds that up secretly or overtly to discredit and mock you.
 

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Troubadour
3 hours ago, Troy said:

In 2019? You are 100% supportive  of White Supremacist ideology if you support Trump. So yeah. They are White Supremacists.

 

That seems a bit black or white to me. People are complex. They take what they like from an ideology and leave the rest of it out. For example, someone might say something like "I'm a Trump supporter, I like what he is doing with the economy but I think he goes way too far with his race hate. I wish he'd back off on that stuff but I'll probably vote for him again because the alternative includes abortion and I'm totally against that." You probably wouldn't hear that from a Michael student, right? More evolved souls tend to look at things from as many perspectives as they can.

 

3 hours ago, Troy said:

 

I hear you and I don’t despise you and I really don’t know if you are the average white guy who rejects understanding. I would think you are, but we’ve been surprised by a couple of members in the past. So I asked you to stop and listen because, regardless of your list of friends and family as credentials, you are still looking at this from the single most privileged and protected class on the planet.

 

What if I am a white guy? I would prefer to be judged by the contents of my consciousness and the actions I take. If a person is judged by the colour of their skin then surely the person doing the judging is a racist. If a person judges someone by their sexuality or gender it says way more about the person doing the judging than the judged. And what if I am prosperous? Is there something inherently wrong with money?

3 hours ago, Troy said:

The fact that you do not see how supporting Trump is a direct and conscious choice to support the emboldened assault against people of color, LGBTQIA+, immigrants, and women means you do have more listening and learning to do. Especially if your life is full of such diversity as it is. 

 

At no time have I suggested that I support Trump and I also haven't made any assertions about what Trump supporters do.  I hoped that telling you a little about my situation might lead to you thinking about me as an individual with the sovereign rights of a human being above all else. In the quote above you seem to be lecturing me. I have seen others in this forum in the last year miss-quoted and shouted down. I have seen them lose their cool and ban themselves or be banned because assumptions similar to the example above have been made of them. Not all, but SOME of those people were good, kind and evolved, in my opinion. I miss their presence and I think this forum suffers from their absence. 

 

I think you are a good, kind and evolved person Troy. But I will suggest that there are a few topics on which you see red and will not hear of any sentiment but that which echoes your own. There are VERY good reasons for this. I have great compassion and empathy for your situation and I agree that the powerless of this world need those of us who are able to assist them. 

 

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AnnaD

@Troubadour, in light of the Christchurch Mosque Massacre, whose occurrence is due in part to the bigoted toxic propaganda of President Trump, I am curious that you would speculate that there might be an appropriate level of racial hatred that a high ranking politician whose office holds the power to grant or withold social financial and legal wellbeing of his constituents, can hold without scrutiny/ accountability.

 

 Donald Trump is the inspiration for the revival of White Supremacy around the world, and in light of what has happened in the Christchurch Mosque Massacre, leaving 49 People dead, 39 People in hospital, and multiple people affected for the rest of their lives because some White Supremacist Arsehole decided that Muslims in Christchurch New Zealand were threatening his life, you must be beyond vulnerability of having your human rights witheld or denied, to take your stance on Donald Trump - which is, you can take him or leave him. Your ambivalence and or apathy and or nonchalance regarding Donald Trump's renowned hatred for anyone who isn't White + Male + Heterosexual + Conservative + Christian + Nazi loving is an either unusually ignorant, or a Trump supporting place to be in. 

 

Many of us, myself included, are fair game for the bigotry and hatred of White Supremacists. To accomodate for the safety and wellbeing of those who are people of colour, who are Muslim, who are queer, who are trans, who are liberal or radical, would be a positive extension of your humanity for any privilege you have. 

Edited by AnnaD
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Troubadour
22 minutes ago, AnnaD said:

I am curious that you would speculate that there might be an appropriate level of racial hatred that a high ranking politician whose office holds the power to grant or withold social financial and legal wellbeing of his constituents, can hold without scrutiny/ accountability.

 I didn't speculate or write anything of the sort. 

 

24 minutes ago, AnnaD said:

you must be beyond vulnerability of having your human rights witheld or denied, to take your stance on Donald Trump - which is, you can take him or leave him

I did not suggest that at any stage. My fervent hope is that the checks and balances of the American democracy are strong enough to defeat the attacks that the young king Trump perpetuates. I trust that the electorate will perceive Trump for what he is and vote accordingly. 

 

25 minutes ago, AnnaD said:

Your ambivalence and or apathy and or nonchalance regarding Donald Trump's renowned hatred for anyone who isn't White + Male + Heterosexual + Conservative + Christian + Nazi loving is an either unusually ignorant, or a Trump supporting place to be in.

I stated that I do not support Donald Trump. That does not imply that I am apathetic or nonchalant or ambivialent. 

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Miizle

The timing for @Troubadour to raise his concerns about "Troy not interacting enough with people who have different opinions" (or was there another point?) couldn't be more poorly and tastelessly chosen. I understand the point of view, because i semi-agreed with Maxim when he had a similar point a few years ago (about not excluding Trump supporters so that they could learn, mainly) .  BUT those days are long gone now - so much has happened in this world since and seriously, it is pretty black and white right now because the list of atrocities said and done by Trump and&or in his name is that big that if not totally lacking compassion, one has to be a serious dimwit to still support him thinking those things don't matter if there is something else in his policies that is agreeable.  I doubt the amount of things that could be learned/taught by/to them in this community by allowing discussion would surpass the amount of unnecessary turmoil. 

And by the way. Anyone can still read most of the forums and the library. That might just be enough to "impress someone who has a narrow minded outlook with the equanimity of [Troy's] character and the strength of [his] argument", if they really were up for that, without Troy or anyone else here having to spend precious time and energy on most likely completely pointless fights about the same fucking things over and over again with yet another (potential) troll.
 

Quote

I will suggest that there are a few topics on which you see red and will not hear of any sentiment but that which echoes your own. There are VERY good reasons for this. I have great compassion and empathy for your situation and I agree that the powerless of this world need those of us who are able to assist them. 

 

I just do not understand why you are choosing to say these things then, knowing that, thinking that? I can't think of a logical reason, if you yourself already knew your point wouldn't be heard. Especially under this thread. What did you hope to achieve? Come on, 49 people have just been murdered. Give it a break and maybe try funneling your change maker energy somewhere where wider view and acceptance would actually be sorely needed?
(Edit: That was not sarcasm or intended as an insult but rather a genuine suggestion, a call for wider views and clear thinking is almost always a positive thing, but, every now and again there is a wrong time and a wrong place)

Edited by Miizle
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Troubadour
13 minutes ago, Miizle said:

The timing for @Troubadour to raise his concerns about "Troy not interacting enough with people who have different opinions" (or was there another point?) couldn't be more poorly and tastelessly chosen. I understand the point of view, because i semi-agreed with Maxim when he had a similar point a few years ago (about not excluding Trump supporters so that they could learn, mainly) . 

 

I raised these concerns here six months ago. At length. Then it was in regard to the group known as the Intellectual Dark Web. I tried to suggest it might be appropriate to pay some attention to the group who were and are still debating with open minded logical reasoning some of the most important issues facing us. The reaction was unmitigated fury. Similar to the reactions now. 

It is never a black and white world. The shooter expressed dissatisfaction with Trump policies. When there are no shades of grey people lose sight of the moderate view and tend to want revenge. 

22 minutes ago, Miizle said:

And by the way. Anyone can still read most of the forums and the library. That might just be enough to "impress someone who has a narrow minded outlook with the equanimity of [Troy's] character and the strength of [his] argument", if they really were up for that, without Troy or anyone else here having to spend precious time and energy on most likely completely pointless fights about the same fucking things over and over again with yet another (potential) troll.

 

I read most of what goes on here. I am a Michael student. And it is here that I choose to put my energy. I think my point will be heard by many of the people on this forum. I suspect that some will agree (quietly) with me and it appears you do too Miizle when you deem it to be an appropriate time. What I hope to achieve is reasoned debate. Inclusiveness of moderate views. The destruction of half baked ideologies through the input of well thought out argument and the evolution of consciousness of what should be the most open minded group of people on the planet.. Michael students striving to prevent the necessity of the infinite soul to incarnate on earth. 

 

 

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Troubadour

Perhaps a reasonable place for debate to start might be Prime Minister Adherns declaration that gun laws will be changed in NZ. If that works will it have any affect on Trump? Emma Gonzales and David Hogg are working hard on this in the US and I suspect they may get the fillip they need if there is a recent demonstrable example. 

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Troy
9 hours ago, Troubadour said:

That seems a bit black or white to me. People are complex. They take what they like from an ideology and leave the rest of it out. For example, someone might say something like "I'm a Trump supporter, I like what he is doing with the economy but I think he goes way too far with his race hate. I wish he'd back off on that stuff but I'll probably vote for him again because the alternative includes abortion and I'm totally against that." You probably wouldn't hear that from a Michael student, right? More evolved souls tend to look at things from as many perspectives as they can.

 

If someone thinks Trump is helping the economy, they are already delusional or they are part of the 1% who are profiting off the harm done to the rest of us, so that person is not complex, they are either using "economy" as a cover for their bigotry, or they are super greedy and have zero interest in the well-being of their fellow human beings. It's that simple. And if they would rather vote in a racist than to give a woman her right to choose, then they are really shitty people just for that reason.

 

You just tried to describe a Trump follower as "complex," but your great example is someone who is willing to make "economy" and control over women more important than protecting and expanding human rights and equality. And your example quote is actually a fair quote. It's familiar. A lot of Trump followers might say it. And it just reveals how completely disconnected and selfish that person must be. As Trump continues to roll back our rights and encourage violence and hate toward anyone not white, how could anyone with any conscience at all vote for this man? Every excuse you can come up with at this point will go straight back to that person CHOOSING to align with the values of White Supremacy ideology. There is no way around it now. Sorry. It's not complex.

 

9 hours ago, Troubadour said:

What if I am a white guy?

 

If you are a white guy, it explains your skewed perspective, that's all. It's not a judgment on you or against you. It just helps make sense of your privileged, disconnected, and protected position you are coming from in defending those who align with white supremacist ideology. You have the luxury to see them as just people with different perspectives and see them as "complex". This is the mentality of protected privilege that allows Trump to say that there are "very fine people on both sides" after a White Supremacist murders a civil rights activist and after a parade of white men carrying torches are chanting racist slurs. People who are violently fighting to destroy the rights and lives of others ARE NOT equal to the people who are fighting to protect our lives and our rights. The rest of us don't have the luxury or pretending this is just a matter of complex human beings. It is a black and white scenario of one group of people trying to destroy every other group. The fact that you are more concerned with asking me to welcome people who support White Supremacy is extremely disturbing to me. It's not a bad thing that you might be a white man of privilege, but you are using your privilege and power to ask us to accept those who support white supremacy instead of using your privilege and power to help support those who are targeted for violence and hate and fighting for our lives and our rights. And Trump followers are directly supporting White Supremacy. There is no question about this by now. If you think there is still a question, then you are dangerously rejecting reality.

 

9 hours ago, Troubadour said:

At no time have I suggested that I support Trump and I also haven't made any assertions about what Trump supporters do.  I hoped that telling you a little about my situation might lead to you thinking about me as an individual with the sovereign rights of a human being above all else. In the quote above you seem to be lecturing me.

 

You said this in response to this quote: "The fact that you do not see how supporting Trump is a direct and conscious choice to support the emboldened assault against people of color, LGBTQIA+, immigrants, and women means you do have more listening and learning to do. Especially if your life is full of such diversity as it is." So where in that quote did I say you support Trump? Where in that quote did I say you made any assertions about what Trump supporters do? I asserted in that quote what you DO NOT see and based on this conversation with you, you DO NOT "see how supporting Trump is a direct and conscious choice to support [white supremacy]." That's just a fact of observation based on your defense of them. You seem to think that Trump followers are complex and might not support White Supremacy, right? So that means you don't see how supporting Trump is a direct and conscious choice to support White Supremacy. So let's just be clear about what I actually said, and not leave us in what you think I said.

 

9 hours ago, Troubadour said:

I have seen others in this forum in the last year miss-quoted and shouted down. I have seen them lose their cool and ban themselves or be banned because assumptions similar to the example above have been made of them.

 

Well based on how you just reframed and completely altered my words in your head to suit your defenses, I can see why you relate to those other people who did the same thing and twisted everything up because they couldn't accept that they may need to rethink their perspective.

 

9 hours ago, Troubadour said:

I think you are a good, kind and evolved person Troy. But I will suggest that there are a few topics on which you see red and will not hear of any sentiment but that which echoes your own.

 

Ignoring the patronizing, I will just ask that you notice that the topics about which I "see red" and "will not hear of any sentiment but that which echoes my own" are those directly related to the rights and protection of vulnerable groups. That kind of stuff is not up for debate. There are no "differing opinions" to discuss. I fight for rights, protection, and equality of my fellow human Earthlings. What is there to debate about that? I fight for the protection, freedom, and compassion for my fellow non-Human Earthlings? What is there to debate about that? Anyone who thinks there is any room for debate about making life better for our fellow human and non-human Earthlings has already lost the debate.

 

We should not be debating whether I should accept into my work and community space the people who support an ideology that explicitly calls for harm to me and my friends. The fact that you are asking me to do that is really in poor taste and really disconnected from reality.

 

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Troy
3 hours ago, Troubadour said:

The reaction was unmitigated fury. Similar to the reactions now. 

 

"Unmitigated fury?" You are seriously exaggerating all of this in your head. I see no fury in any replies, not even yours. Jeez.

 

3 hours ago, Troubadour said:

It is never a black and white world. The shooter expressed dissatisfaction with Trump policies. When there are no shades of grey people lose sight of the moderate view and tend to want revenge. 

 

You just used a mass murderer as an example of someone who is not "black and white" because while he cites Trump as his inspiration for slaughtering 49 innocent people, he still expressed dissatisfaction with Trump's policies. THIS is your example of a moderate view and someone with shades of grey? If not, your words need to be clearer because this is sickening.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this conversation with you because you are the one who needs to 

3 hours ago, Troubadour said:

 

I raised these concerns here six months ago. At length. Then it was in regard to the group known as the Intellectual Dark Web. I tried to suggest it might be appropriate to pay some attention to the group who were and are still debating with open minded logical reasoning some of the most important issues facing

 

Again, you are asking us to give credence and value to a group of racist, sexist, privileged straight [mosly white] men with ideologies that align with white supremacists and is all about their fear of losing power as men. Sorry. Not going to happen. But after this conversation, you have made it clear that these ideologies are of value and interest to you. Noted.

 

 

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Troy

I am done with the conversation about how I should be more accepting and welcoming to those who actively support or cause harm and violence to people of color and various rejected genders and sexualities. There is nothing to debate here. Those who support harm to others are not welcome here. Those who actively or passively support White Supremacy ARE NOT WELCOME HERE.

 

END. OF. STORY. 

 

This is a community where no person of color or of various genders or sexualities will ever have to face or deal with the people who passively or actively support harm to their lives.

 

END. OF. STORY.

 

This is a community that hosts a teaching that invites us to be loving and accepting but to also use our fucking brains and hearts to know the difference between healthy boundaries and unhealthy excuses. If you study this teaching and are here to learn from this teaching, then you will learn that it does not mean you are less evolved when you say no to abuse and harm and say no to those who cause and support abuse and harm to you.

 

This teaching describes one of its 7 Goals as DISCRIMINATION for a reason. We all learn how to say no and when to say no, how to say yes and when to say yes. To always say yes or to always say no is unhealthy.

 

I say yes to everyone who is all for the well-being and safety and kindness for their fellow human beings.

 

I say no to anyone who actively or passively supports harm and violence to their fellow human beings.

 

WHAT IS SO CONFUSING ABOUT THAT? HOW IS THAT UP FOR DEBATE?

 

If you have a problem with any of the above, this community is not for you. If you are still trying to understand and make sense of it, stick around and see if you can understand and make sense of it. But if you have a problem with any of the above, seriously... this community is not for you.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

PS 

If someone supports Trump, they support White Supremacist ideology. There is no way around that and no excuses left anymore.

If you know of someone who somehow does not realize this, you need to tell them so that they know. 

If they claim they do not support White Supremacy ideology but support Trump for other reasons, you need to tell them that this STILL MEANS they are actively supporting White Supremacist ideology.

If they continue to support Trump despite all of this, then do whatever works for you in dealing with this.

Just don't invite them to join TLE.

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ckaricai

This conversation did inspire a new thought for me. And since @Troubadour you mentioned logic it occurred to me to think about this Trump issue logically. And by logically, I mean like mathematically. Someone who says they only support one or two of Trumps policies is still supporting him say at least 20%. Mathematically, they support him. 20% support is still support. Any number above 0% = support. If Trump is in favor of all his policies, then supporting one policy is the same as supporting all his policies because supporting Trump at any number above 0% = support. It's not gray. It's pretty black and white. Either they support him or they don't. 

 

Put another way, that they don't support Trump's domestic and economic policies or they support his apparent racism is a logical tautology. Therefore, they support Trump. Even if they only support one thing about him, they still support him. It's not logically possible to say they can support trump and not support him at the same time. It's either they do or they don't full stop. It's been a while since I've done a truth table, but I honestly am curious as to how arguments about supporting trump can be a gray area would shake out in a truth table. The nerd in me is somehow awake before coffee. LOL

 

I also want to say that as a member of a targeted group the argument to be open to the pov of people who want me and people like me to be dead is actively harmful to my well being. Being open to this kind of argument would be self-hating. Racism and bigotry didn't just happen because of Trump. The only thing he's done is inspire folks who have been that deeply bigoted on the down low to do it out in the open like in the "good old days" of Jim Crow. What's truly heartbreaking for me is to see a uniquely american form of racist expression spread to a place I've always thought of as rather peaceful even if they do have their own form of racism there, at least there weren't any mass shootings.  It's like 9/11 all over again for me psychically. Something inconceivable happened and the world changed. This to me was inconceivable and now it's exactly clear just how many people in the world openly believe a right wing ideology and how far they are willing to go for it. I can no longer tell myself that maybe worrying about how I would be treated as a POC in a new place is paranoid and I should be more open. It's really really not, and it's safer for me if I am not so open. 

 

I've been having these discussions and coping with the bigotry my entire life. I know who these people are and what they are about. I can actually argue their pov for them, I've heard it that often. There's nothing new to learn. There's nothing new to consider. At this point I don't care what their reasoning is for being racist, bigoted, biased, sizeist, sexist, homophobic, ect. Whatever. There actually is only one reason and that is fear. It's not hard to understand. I don't need to coddle that fear, or make excuses for their behavior because of that fear. I don't need to entertain that fear at all. What's more, their minds won't be changed. That's not how it works. The more we try to talk to those folks the more defensive they become and the more they shut down. There really is nothing to say anymore at that point. Reasoned debate is not possible. 

 

Reasoned debate about someone wanting me and people like me to die is not possible. 

Edited by ckaricai
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Michael

Just bringing up what we all know:  we all take turns being the good guy and gal as well as the bad guy and gal.  The oppressor and the oppressed, etc.  Every race.  Every orientation.  What we react to with the most passion may be what we are most fearful of within ourselves.

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