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Revisiting My Positon on Trump Followers

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Faye
1 hour ago, Troubadour said:

I agree with everything in KurtisM’s post and I would like to point specifically at the above excerpt. I have a suspicion that all of the other conditions of love as elucidated by kurtis are being fulfilled here but TLE could work on this one. 

Love and inclusivity is not something that can be forced on someone. It is inherently an invitation. It must be accepted. To include everyone on everything will only ever serve to see you stomped to death. It is more loving to have clear boundaries and set an invitation. (as Troy and others have elucidated many times) This invitation has some conditions though. If you are not willing to meet the conditions of an invitation that is always given, then that is on you. I personally believe active love is very much alive in TLE. You may not feel it though as you seem to have chosen to sit on the outside. You do not have to though.

 

Unconditional love is a hard concept. I think it is something we all strive for. However, the nature of our experience is conditional and therefore I think we can only ever experience it in spurts. We must learn to be okay with the nature of our reality. I see a plague of fake unconditional love and only works to hurt people when they find the conditions. The Christians do it and we do it, a lot of people do it. Accepting our nature and the love we can give to ourselves and another is embracing a Truth that is both healing and brings wholeness to ourselves and other. Embrace your expression of love and work to further it. That to me is what these teachings are all about. Learning to choose and choosing to learn.

Edited by MichaelE
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KurtisM

@Troubadour, I disagree on the idea that TLE folks like Troy are not good at Active Love. Active Love is entirely what Troy is seeking to do with this forum.

He is seeking to create a place where people are not harmed and unjustly persecuted, victimized, abused, exploited etc. He calls out what he sees as patterns that may have led to, or may further lead to those realities.

Consider also, that he is an Idealist and Idealists are said to be inclined to perceive beyond what is, and into projected patterns that extend beyond that. They look more at what is not done, seen, heard, felt because it can be a path to improvement.

Active Love is an active Mature Soul stance that even the most passive of Old Souls have access to. We don't just use wisdom to ignore, accept and condone, we use it to help and intervene.

Mature Souls can come from a place of Indignant Righteousness and learn to build that into Empathetic Sensitivity. This goes for all of us, we must process our convoluted feelings to get to the root/heart of things, while still developing a Decisive and Intuitive Compassion that helps those that are harmed, pained and suffering.

Sometimes that just hurts for both parties. It's difficult to process everything we use to refuse compassion, or that blocks compassion, and it's ok to realize that in my mind.

 

Some insights I think you could benefit from are that:

1. Troy's group at TLE is an Intellectual one Idealistically and Passionately aiming for Discrimination. When we go into the -Poles here we get mired in Naive Reasons for Rejection that we Identify with. In the +Poles we Coalesce Insights for Refining our process of and capacity for Self-Actualization.

You can read about this here.

2. The Ms mentioned in the 7 Causes transcript that TLE is good at implementing the Causes of Love and Unity but that we fall short on the cause of Peace, which has a -Pole of either Inhibition (internally hiding all that prevents peace) or Oppression (externally conforming all that prevents peace), and a +Pole of Negotiation.

When it comes to matters and ideas of what's peaceful, I've seen that's where TLE falls the most into the -Poles. Peace isn't about avoiding conflict, and it isn't about reaching a final place of absolute stability and certainty, and it isn't about majority rules dominant ideologies. I see it more as non-attachment.

 

"Consider what you have seen among our own Students.   Unity is quite high among our students, but not Peace.   Peace falls into Inhibition.   Both Unity and Peace have their challenges among our own students, but with Inhibition, or False Peace upheld over Negotiation and True Peace, most Causes among our students across the larger community are fueled by Unity, ignoring Peace."

 

You can read more about Michael's perspective of Peace here and here and here:

"PEACE IS NOT PERFECT OR ALWAYS PRETTY - Peace will never be about agreeing, complying, ensuring like-mindedness, or removal of challenge. Peace is the embrace of evolution. Peace is inviting challenges. Peace is allowing for differences. This is true in global and internal terms. Peace is not fought for or imposed. It is negotiated and realized. It is remembered. It is Deliberate. Remember this as you worry about your life and the world. Peace can be sustained even though the most turbulent of times because that turbulence is embraced as part of the growing pains of evolution. Peace is not fantastical. It is practical."

Edited by KurtisM
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Troubadour
18 minutes ago, KurtisM said:

@Troubadour, I disagree on the idea that TLE folks like Troy are not good at Active Love. Active Love is entirely what Troy is seeking to do with this forum.

He is seeking to create a place where people are not harmed and unjustly persecuted, victimized, abused, exploited etc. He calls out what he sees as patterns that may have led to, or may further lead to those realities.

Consider also, that he is an Idealist and Idealists are said to be inclined to perceive beyond what is, and into projected patterns that extend beyond that. They look more at what is not done, seen, heard, felt because it can be a path to improvement.

Active Love is an active Mature Soul stance that even the most passive of Old Souls have access to. We don't just use wisdom to ignore, accept and condone, we use it to help and intervene.

Mature Souls can come from a place of Indignant Righteousness and learn to build that into Empathetic Sensitivity. This goes for all of us, we must process our convoluted feelings to get to the root/heart of things, while still developing a Decisive and Intuitive Compassion that helps those that are harmed, pained and suffering.

Sometimes that just hurts for both parties. It's difficult to process everything we use to refuse compassion, or that blocks compassion, and it's ok to realize that in my mind.

 

Some insights I think you could benefit from are that:

1. Troy's group at TLE is an Intellectual one Idealistically and Passionately aiming for Discrimination. When we go into the -Poles here we get mired in Naive Reasons for Rejection that we Identify with. In the +Poles we Coalesce Insights for Refining our process of and capacity for Self-Actualization.

You can read about this here.

2. The Ms mentioned in the 7 Causes transcript that TLE is good at implementing the Causes of Love and Unity but that we fall short on the cause of Peace, which has a -Pole of either Inhibition (internally hiding all that prevents peace) or Oppression (externally conforming all that prevents peace), and a +Pole of Negotiation.

When it comes to matters and ideas of what's peaceful, I've seen that's where TLE falls the most into the -Poles. Peace isn't about avoiding conflict, and it isn't about reaching a final place of absolute stability and certainty, and it isn't about majority rules dominant ideologies. I see it more as non-attachment.

 

"Consider what you have seen among our own Students.   Unity is quite high among our students, but not Peace.   Peace falls into Inhibition.   Both Unity and Peace have their challenges among our own students, but with Inhibition, or False Peace upheld over Negotiation and True Peace, most Causes among our students across the larger community are fueled by Unity, ignoring Peace."

 

You can read more about Michael's perspective of Peace here and here and here:

"PEACE IS NOT PERFECT OR ALWAYS PRETTY - Peace will never be about agreeing, complying, ensuring like-mindedness, or removal of challenge. Peace is the embrace of evolution. Peace is inviting challenges. Peace is allowing for differences. This is true in global and internal terms. Peace is not fought for or imposed. It is negotiated and realized. It is remembered. It is Deliberate. Remember this as you worry about your life and the world. Peace can be sustained even though the most turbulent of times because that turbulence is embraced as part of the growing pains of evolution. Peace is not fantastical. It is practical."

Agreed. With a caveat. Have you noticed how many former active TLE people no longer post? In the  last 6 months the number must be greater than 10. These folks were attacked with a viciousness out of proportion to the comments they made. Take the vegan issue for example. Would it not be better to have those people here, now entering into debate?  Might they not develop a view that is in synchrony with the vegan view if they were treated with understanding and allowed to evolve at their own pace?  I suggest that people get frightened off by the vehemence of the tone. 

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KurtisM

@Troubadour, at any point within the last 3 years I also could have just up and left TLE because I felt attacked, accused, called out, minimized for what I said and contributed.

Regardless of TLE's actual intentions, those were the feelings I felt and had to deal with and work through. It was rigorously intense because I did that self-work through major periods of anxiety, stress, grief and turning points in my life.

 

I came to the realization that regardless of how hurt I felt, and regardless of the issues of righteousness or conclusivity I felt others could work on, my reaction was mostly just Arrogance and so my growth could be achieved if I worked more on letting myself be vulnerable, be seen, be scrutinized etc.

But I didn't have to let others words and perceptions define me. They're just different perspectives than what I am used to, and most of the time they come from a good place.

Even if I was hurt, I could still contribute my perspectives and insights and negotiate without losing who I am to the parts of me I felt were rejected.

 

I agree with you that TLE could use more negotiation. It's great at aiming for safety, but not always so great with negotiation.

Regardless I find my greatest power lies in my responsibility, how I choose, what I can control etc. rather than reacting irresponsibly from focusing on how I can't choose and what I can't control.

It does, ironically, help me achieve the peace I initially thought others had to provide for me.

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Troubadour
6 minutes ago, KurtisM said:

@Troubadour, at any point within the last 3 years I also could have just up and left TLE because I felt attacked, accused, called out, minimized for what I said and contributed.

Regardless of TLE's actual intentions, those were the feelings I felt and had to deal with and work through. It was rigorously intense because I did that self-work through major periods of anxiety, stress, grief and turning points in my life.

 

I came to the realization that regardless of how hurt I felt, and regardless of the issues of righteousness or conclusivity I felt others could work on, my reaction was mostly just Arrogance and so my growth could be achieved if I worked more on letting myself be vulnerable, be seen, be scrutinized etc.

But I didn't have to let others words and perceptions define me. They're just different perspectives than what I am used to, and most of the time they come from a good place.

Even if I was hurt, I could still contribute my perspectives and insights and negotiate without losing who I am to the parts of me I felt were rejected.

 

I agree with you that TLE could use more negotiation. It's great at aiming for safety, but not always so great with negotiation.

Regardless I find my greatest power lies in my responsibility, how I choose, what I can control etc. rather than reacting irresponsibly from focusing on how I can't choose and what I can't control.

It does, ironically, help me achieve the peace I initially thought others had to provide for me.

That’s great for you Kurtis. You seem to have a particularly robust personality but I suggest that damage is done here to some folks who might be fragile in some way. 

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NickG
10 hours ago, Troubadour said:

That’s great for you Kurtis. You seem to have a particularly robust personality but I suggest that damage is done here to some folks who might be fragile in some way. 

But try to understand, is the fragility of some worth more than the legitimate concerns and issues facing an oppressed and persecuted people? To me that just sounds like their fragility is somehow more of a concern than an actual threat to an entire group of people. And maybe I'm assuming a great deal from that, but it also seems extremely childish to not be able to listen to someone's point of view. Yes, at times it can come across here as extremely harsh but only because there is no sense of protecting someone's feelings over the reality of what's happening in the world.. 

 

I come from a very rural area in Ohio and happen to live an extremely privileged life, hardly ever wanting for anything. I have no idea of the lives and challenges of an oppressed group of people face every day from society. Sure, I've been bullied and felt like an "other" most of my life, but that isn't the same as an entire culture, ideology, and even society challenging your position to just exist in the world. The point I'm trying to make is that I do my best to just listen. For some reason much of what is posted whenever these topics come up is still triggering to me in a lot of ways. I don't know why, I'm still trying to work that out why I get so  angry and feel the need to lash out, but the point is I never do. I take that extra time to listen, to really try to put myself into someone else's shoes to understand their perspective. That's all that's being asked is just  to listen, really listen and, if you can, help and be an ally to these people and groups. 

Edited by NickG
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Sam K

The way I see it, nobody finds their way here purely by accident.  My assumption is that if you end up on TLE, you are a student, and you are here to learn in some sense.  Of course, the only learning some students may be in a position to receive is to be shown that they're asleep at the wheel and contributing (actively or passively) to a system of oppression that they should be helping to tear down.  If being shown a mirror doesn't get the lesson to stick, being shown the door might.

 

Of course, it's equally true that maintaining this forum as a safe space necessitates such exclusion and that people simply don't have to put up with authoritarian nonsense in their midst in order to practice love and acceptance.  But even that exclusion can be an opportunity for growth if one chooses.

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Troubadour

This article is written by an Australian. It covers some of the issues addressed in this thread and I support the tone and content. It particularly mentions what happens in insular groups and the role of the internet and I think it appropriate to include it here. https://quillette.com/2019/03/16/after-christchurch-remember-the-victims-but-resist-the-urge-to-blame/

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Troy
18 hours ago, Michael said:

MichaelE ,  Well I myself am an example of one who experimented plenty with darkness in my youth and also learned plenty through "burning my fingers".  Why do you think we created Earth since the higher planes already existed and were already a "socialist paradise" so to speak?

 

This is like asking, "why do we have kindergartens and pre-schools when we have colleges and higher education?"

 

And the logic here is like saying, "When I was little, I pulled little girls' hair on the playground and kicked dogs in the head, so why stop other kids from pulling girls' hair and kicking dogs?" 

 

Hopefully, you can see the absurdity in these questions and false logic.

 

We have the Physical Plane as a launch toward higher planes, not as an alternative to them. We have kindergartens and pre-schools as a launch toward higher education, not as an alternative.

 

If we learned anything from harming others, it is that we need to intervene, step up, and teach those who are harming others now. If an adult has learned anything about his past as a bully and abuser, it is that there is every reason in the world to intervene, step up, and teach other kids not to treat people that way.

 

If you take from this teaching a meh-let's-shrug-our-shoulders-at-atrocities philosophy, you are missing the point of the teachings.

 

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Leela Corman

I can't read through this entire thread, but I need to say something, as a Jew, as a woman, as a punk, as a descendant of Holocaust survivors: you don't let Nazis in the door. You don't argue with them, try to convince them of the error of their ways, appeal to the better angels of their nature. There are boundaries to tolerance. My humanity is not up for debate. The humanity of LGBT people, Jews, people of color, Muslims, women, is not up for debate. To suggest otherwise is sophistry that most of us don't have the luxury to engage in. 

 

When you allow a skinhead to have a seat at your bar, they return the next night with twenty of their friends and beat the shit out of everyone. That's a lesson punks in the US and the UK learned in the 80's and 90's, and they drove them out of their scenes by not tolerating them. You can read plenty about that; somewhere there's an oral history of people like Henry Rollins etc. talking about how they did it. It wasn't easy but they did it. We all need to learn from them.

 

White supremacy is the danger we all face right now, locally and systemically. We need to be loud about that. A white supremacist murdered worshippers in a synagogue in Pittsburgh, in fact I'm pretty sure in the synagogue where my aunt was a cantor. White supremacist violence is everywhere and has been for centuries; I encourage everyone to view it systemically and not fall into the trap of the "lone wolf" narrative, which only serves their agenda. America and Australia were both founded on white supremacy. We are barely out from chattel slavery. Mass incarceration is slavery by another name. The direct results of systemic, targeted racism are everywhere in our society, from the justice system to the economy to urban planning to education to who gets toxic waste dumped in their neighborhoods and who doesn't. Native genocide is still happening. We are fucked over by white supremacy all the time. Meanwhile little white boys strut around with torches yelling "Jews will not replace us!" and Rep. Ilhan Omar gets death threats for merely suggesting that we broaden out Middle East policy discourse. Fuck all of this. These people are toxic. We outnumber them and as my favorite Yiddish slogan goes, We will outlive them. But we won't do so by pretending there's any validity to their beliefs. Don't let Nazis in the door.

Edited by Leela Corman
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Leela Corman

@CurvyWords How are we all even still sane? We're being gaslit all the time these days. It's of course not new. It's just reached a new level of amplification. If there's anything good I can say about recent times, it's that I can't use whatever privilege I do have to ignore inequality and injustice any longer. Well, okay, one other thing I can point to is the rise of public servants like Omar, AOC, Pressley, etcetera. The future doesn't lie in faking love and acceptance of assholes, but in the people those assholes want to destroy becoming our leaders. 

 

@Troy I support you in your boundary creation and appreciate what you are doing here, in all ways. And yes, if someone supports Trump, they are supporting white supremacy, children in cages, and all the rest of these horrors. What's the German saying, "If you have eight people at a table and seven are Nazis, you have eight Nazis at the table"?

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Stickyflames

I was listening to a true crime podcast last month, dirty john.

About a woman named Debra who continues to nurture a relationship with the most redflags a relationship could possibly have, until the guy tries to kill her daughter...to the surprise of NO ONE.

There was a chapter where they interviewed Debra’s mother.

The mother told a story about how her other daughter ( Debra’s sister) was shot and killed by her husband ( the daughters husband).

The daughter asked for her mothers help moving out of the relationship.

The mom continued to say “ You know, we should love people. We should forgive people. Make an effort in your marriage”. Her daughter just wanted out.

The husbands response to her wanting out was to shoot her in the head.

 

The mother was devestated by the loss of her daughter but as SOON as the trial began against her son in law ...she stood infront of a court and said “ I forgive him, I love him. He was out of his mind when he shot her. I know he loved her so much that he could not bear losing her. He loved her so much. I forgive him”.

The man was given a short sentence for killing a woman who wanted out of the marriage. The testimony of the mother was the reason for that short sentence.

 

Years later,  Debrah is in a relationship that she knows will end horribly. 

There are too many red flags to deny that: The constant restraining orders, hidden drugs, lies upon lies upon lies. Everytime she wants to leave she thinks of the goodness in others. She notices how much he does for her, how much he loves her, 

She forgives him for his past with no sign that he has learned from it. 

He ends up trying to kill her daughter ...just to hurt her.

 

This mentality of reaching our arms out to our abusers has a price. The price is spreading ideologies of boundarilessness. Ideologies of powerlessness.

 

So many of life’s experiences require us to exercise our love muscle. Require us to see the other perspective, understand the other. Include the realities of it and the true innocence of all involved. This is only half the picture though. Our NO’s are the other half.

We have to be loving AND Powerful to create change. We have to be Yes AND NO.

We have to be DISCERNING of when to use either.

When we welcome perspectives to the table of people who even passively embrace harm, what is that doing? 

When I was younger, I was definately in the category of that bigotry pyramid that would make jokes about everyone and everything, mostly the powerless in society, I loved the shock on peoples faces of “ Did he just say that?”. My roommate had a nazi flag her grandfather stole from the war. I encouraged her to hang it up on the wall. I would laugh anytime somebody walked in with a shocked face. 

I was the embodiment of “ Why so serious?”. I warshiped anarchy.

I KNOW I would of loved Jordan peterson and the dark web because those people speak to powerless white men. I wanted power so baddly in this world and I only found it in my ability to laugh at everything anyone took seriously.

Fuck, I even hated vegans. My fridge was full of bear sausage and raw milk. Even that gave me false sense of power.

None of this was from a place of hating other groups of people, none of it was from my own racist beliefs......but damn was it all racist bigotry! What else could you call it?! It was all bigotry. The taking the wind out of the sails from peoples active attempts of social activism....was HARMFUL!

 

No one in my life gave me a “ seat at the table” to share my “ views” of “ Let’s not take all of this so seriously! Relax everyone!”  equally.

I have been so lucky to be surrounded by human beings with boundaries.

I was evicted, said no to, constantly challenged. 

What would of happened if I was surrounded by others like me? Others who felt just as powerless, others who felt we took all of this way too seriously?

Who knows?

I just know as someone who has been on the other side, the darker side,

THE NO’S HELPED. Love helped, when people acknowledged the good in me. Encouragement helped. Nurturing the side of me that cared helped. The blatant NO’s sure did help. The evictions helped. 

 

Discern , discern, discern,

It is completely ok to say no to people whose views fan the flames of harm in this world. Even passively.

There is no other way.

We can also discern when we gauge someone has grown in the capacity to see beyond passive or active encouragement of harm. If we are ready, we can let them back in. If they show ZERO budge, say NO. Always say NO.

 

 

Edited by Stickyflames
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ckaricai
2 hours ago, Troubadour said:

This article is written by an Australian. It covers some of the issues addressed in this thread and I support the tone and content. It particularly mentions what happens in insular groups and the role of the internet and I think it appropriate to include it here. https://quillette.com/2019/03/16/after-christchurch-remember-the-victims-but-resist-the-urge-to-blame/

 

There are too many examples of atrocities throughout history to blame the internet. Every time a new technology is discovered society blames the new tech on societal changes they think are bad. Humans don’t need the internet to be horrible. Hitler rose to power without the internet. The transatlantic slave trade and colonialism happened without the internet. Racism didn’t end after WW2 or with the civil rights movement. This article implies that the internet caused a resurgence of bigotry and that’s just not true. The rise to power of bigoted individuals worldwide and their sanctioning of open hostility has caused the rise in violence as far as I’m concerned. 

 

“This is not to minimise the pockets of extremism that do exist—and which may be growing. But we should be precise as well as nuanced with our words. Portraying Australia as an irredeemably racist nation is not a good strategy for bringing communities together. We don’t foster  cohesion by apportioning blame to others. We foster cohesion by emphasising our sameness and our shared values.”

 

This is basically the “I don’t see race” defense and the “not all white people” defense that ultimately dismisses the real aggressions and microagressions that POC have to deal with. This is not a solution. It’s an evasion of responsibility of white privilege and speaks to a lack of understanding about issues of race and discrimination. I bet the indigenous folks there would have some things to say about the topic that white Australians and Kiwis should listen to. 

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Maureen

Something to remember... love may be unconditional but all relationships have conditions. 

 

This is one of my favourite quotes:

 

"The third near enemy of compassion is idiot compassion. This is when we avoid conflict and protect our good image by being kind when we should say a definite 'no.' Compassion doesn't imply only trying to be good. When we find ourselves in an aggressive relationship, we need to set clear boundaries. The kindest thing we can do for everyone concerned is to say, 'enough.' Many people use Buddhist ideals to justify self-debasement. In the name of not shutting our heart, we let people walk all over us. It is said that in order not to break our vow of compassion we have to learn when to stop aggression and draw the line. There are times when the only way to bring down barriers is to set boundaries."  

 

~ Pema Chödrön, The Places that Scare You

 

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Troy
18 hours ago, Troubadour said:

In the  last 6 months the number must be greater than 10. These folks were attacked with a viciousness out of proportion to the comments they made. Take the vegan issue for example. Would it not be better to have those people here, now entering into debate?  Might they not develop a view that is in synchrony with the vegan view if they were treated with understanding and allowed to evolve at their own pace?  I suggest that people get frightened off by the vehemence of the tone. 

 

Uh oh... be careful. This is pure fabrication and speculation that you may have come up with to suit a biased investment in a viewpoint. (like in a previous post where you described this conversation as being full of "fury." -- come on, Michael, let's stop doing that, ok?)

 

But let's break this down...
 

We have not lost 10 members in the past 6 months. In fact, we have gained twice as many or more and we have a lot of great new faces active and engaged. It's wonderful to see! So let's not exaggerate imaginary numbers as a way to boost support for a biased viewpoint. 

 

Activity among active members always moves in cycles, so some active members will go quiet and others suddenly become quite engaged. Let's not characterize natural activity flow as a way to shore up biased viewpoints.

 

A passionate conversation about sensitive subjects is not the same thing as people being attacked. So let's stop characterizing adult conversations among adults who are 99.9% incredibly patient and kind and thoughtful as being such a viper pit of horror.

 

When others try compassionately and exhaustively and patiently to help someone understand that they are wrong about a sensitive subject (and yes, people can be VERY wrong about a subject), it is not the same thing as being attacked. So let's stop characterizing people who are doing the right thing as being the same as people who are only invested in being righteous.

 

Members who choose to take a side in favor of people who support, promote or practice bigotry, cruelty, slavery, white supremacy, bigotry, racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. will always be called out in this community because calling out the practice of normalizing and tolerating harm to others is FAR more loving than any effort to protect people who wish us harm. So let's stop gaslighting everyone by trying to convince them they are wrong or bad for drawing up healthy boundaries between themselves and the people who support harm to others.

 

The handful of members who have left in a dramatic tantrum did so because they were invested in their righteousness and not in understanding what is right. They were invested in manufactured victimization that was not limited to this forum but was clearly a pattern in their personal lives, as well, and reacted with disproportionate hostility and great immaturity. So let's not pretend this handful of people represent a problem with TLE.

 

Here is a really good guideline for engaging in topics on TLE. These guidelines aren't unreasonable or hurting anyone. They just make sense. And if you don't agree, that's okay. They are just guidelines. This deserves its own post, but I'm including it here because I hope it helps clear up the confusion that causes some of you to take these conversations as offensive and unwelcoming.

 

1) Don't defend bigotry and bigots or those who passively or actively support bigots and bigotry. Just... don't. You can disagree and claim that we should love and welcome those who actively or passively harm vulnerable groups of people, but just... just don't do it here.

 

If you want to do the work of protecting bigots from being offended by our healthy boundaries, you go right ahead. Just don't promote that twisted shit in this community or people will call it out. And let's be clear: prioritizing the well-being of those who wish us harm over those who are targets of that harm is some twisted sick shit. If anyone posts about issues regarding bigots and bigotry and you want to defend those bigots and their bigotry, reconsider and just listen. Learn. Listen. Did I mention maybe try to Listen? OR... just ignore it and focus on another topic of your liking. Bigots are not welcome in this community, but they can join. Bigots would never be banned as long as their bigotry is not practiced or promoted here. If you wish to defend and protect bigots and bigotry, just don't expect to win any argument for their protection and acceptance over the protection and acceptance of targeted groups. Sorry.

 

2) Don't defend, celebrate, or interject justifications and excuses for the mass cruelty, slavery, and slaughter of animals. Just... don't. You can disagree and claim that we have a right to harm, enslave, and slaughter billions of animals, but just... just don't do it here.

 

Most members of TLE eat animals. They are welcomed and loved and accepted here without condition or judgement. The choice to eat animals is your choice for now. That choice is between you and your conscience. We already know there are a multitude of reasons for why people still eat animals. We already know that people are not bad or evil for eating animals and NONE OF YOU will ever be rejected, banned, or judged for your choice to eat animals. BUT... the effort to promote compassion and kindness and awareness about the suffering of animals and the invitation to a greater understanding of the options and consequences of our choices and our diets are just that... an effort to promote compassion and kindness and awareness. These are not personal attacks against anyone. You don't have to give in to your compulsion to explain yourself or defend yourself. Just listen. Learn. Consider. Reconsider. And did I mention maybe try to Listen? OR... just ignore those topics. Find a different topic of interest. But don't ever expect to win an argument in favor of harming animals for any reason. Sorry.

 

BOTTOM LINE: If you think it is somehow offensive to promote compassion and kindness toward vulnerable and suffering humans and animals, and somehow more loving and more evolved to focus on accepting the practices that cause suffering, then... seriously... step back with all of the patience you can muster and listen, learn, and reconsider.

 

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Troy
2 hours ago, Leela Corman said:

Don't let Nazis in the door.

 

 

FUCK'N A, LEELA!! DAMN GIRL!! I love you sooo much for that post. And for so many other things, of course!

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Troy

Please forgive me, but I have to be officially done with this conversation. I can't make myself any clearer than I have already and if that is not enough, nothing will be enough. Thank you to everyone who has chimed in with such awesome and beautiful understanding and patience. You guys rock, despite what some people here would have you believe.

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Troubadour

Lol. Now that’s what I call an even tempered discussion. 

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Christian

Wow.  

this thread has blown up and to be honest I don't have the energy to read through all the comments. 

 

two thoughts. 

 

1)  When I saw @Troy post this my first thought was "what the fuck is there to re-evaluate".  Nothing has changed with Trumpettes and if Micheal is correct it won't and is likely to get worse as they fall further into delusion.  So, it didn't make sense to me to re-evaluate.  

 

2) @Leela Corman is exactly right.  You don't let them in.  Because when you do, you will have to use violent means to remove them.  We fought a fucking war over this before. And the modern day posers have marched with signs saying "Only bullets will stop us".   The Trumpettes are already there. 

 

This is one of the few places on the internetz where that kind of BS isn't allowed or tolerated and I, for one, hope it stays that way.  

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Leela Corman

@Troy Love you man. I'm bad at plenty of things and am definitely morally questionable at times, but one thing I am good at is being very mad at Nazis. 

 

@Christian YES, thank you for putting that so succinctly. Yes, yes. Once you let them in you have to use violence to remove them. And come the fuck on, no more.

 

@Stickyflames I love your post so much. I have a lot to say about forgiveness bullying, but I'm hungry and agitated and need a shower so it'll have to wait. What I will say right now is that when a white supremacist terrorist (I will not say his name, fuck his name, may his name be blotted out) murdered black worshipers in a church in 2015, the media made a huge deal over survivors using the language of forgiveness towards him. It is their choice to forgive, and I imagine that such a choice is made from deep spiritual convictions. So it's not them I'm responding to, but the media, who were so excited about black people forgiving the white supremacist who harmed them so deeply that that seemed to become the main narrative at times. That serves a bad agenda, as far as I'm concerned. No one wants to deal with righteous anger, they want to pretend that people forgive their oppressors. Sometimes, that becomes a demand. Anyway that's my two cents on it, my kneejerk reaction to that particular media moment.

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Stickyflames

This got me thinking,

On youtube...basically every single video posted of the dark web guys like peterson has the title “ Jordan Peterson CALMLY DISMANTLES raging snowflake feminist”.

or “Ben Shapiro CALMLY DESTROYS angry trans activist”.

From my experience, even having comversations with a few people who really dig these ideas...the common denominator value amongst them is RESPECT.

 

I mean Troy and Me were having a conversation with someone like this concerning veganism the other day and everything he said sounded as if it was written with a calm smirk.

He valued respectful banter as he calmly called all vegans weak and unhealthy and attacked appearances. 

 

There is this insane idea that tone somehow implies coming from a sincere and true place. That emotional responses somehow implies irrational insanity.

 

How many times have I spoken to someone who has a perspective that is pro harm in some capacity and been told “ You’ll never win me over with that tone 😤 “.

When I use the tone they prefer “ Thank you for speaking to me in a respectful way 😃. I respect your views” and they go on living and voting the way they have before.

 

Now, I try to aim for conversations that are not screaming matches too. I feel better about such conversations afterwards. I like myself a little more afterwards.

I also acknowledge the tone and relaxedness of the conversation has NOTHING to do with whether or not someone is coming from a place of truth. 

You can be very calm and very wrong.

you can be very angry, emotionally charged and very right.

 

Unfortunately, when we expect or demand others are calm and respectful in conversation, we put the job of building bridges ENTIRELY on the person who will struggle far more with staying calm in conversation : the person who is standing up for rights that are not socially accepted as a valid fight.

It is very easy for people whose views are reflected by the majority to stay calm.

They have nothing to lose.

 

One side only truly feels angry when they do not feel RESPECTED in their views.

 

The other side lives every day trying to look for ways not to be angry, because anger is their default in a world where everything they love and value is threatened by the power of people who have nothing to lose except the feeling of RESPECT.

Can we please give the warriors a break when it comes to tone and their anger?

Can we listen to the essence of what they are saying rather than how they are saying it?

Isn’t the message or truth under the delivery far more important?

 

Listening > Respect

 

As someone who does stand up for the values of animals and choices that include without standing for harm....I do think it is my responsibility to convey my truths in a way that others might hear it , others who may not agree. 

I also truly GET it when someone does not have the energy for doing that or is OVER it.

I also get how important it is to have a space where you don’t feel at war so that you can breathe and remember yourself before stepping out into the world again, creating forms that people can hear if they choose to listen.

 

 

 

Edited by Stickyflames
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Troubadour
20 minutes ago, Stickyflames said:

This got me thinking,

On youtube...basically every single video posted of the dark web guys like peterson has the title “ Jordan Peterson CALMLY DISMANTLES raging snowflake feminist”.

or “Ben Shapiro CALMLY DESTROYS angry trans activist”.

From my experience, even having comversations with a few people who really dig these ideas...the common denominator value amongst them is RESPECT.

 

I mean Troy and Me were having a conversation with someone like this concerning veganism the other day and everything he said sounded as if it was written with a calm smirk.

He valued respectful banter as he calmly called all vegans weak and unhealthy and attacked appearances. 

 

There is this insane idea that tone somehow implies coming from a sincere and true place. That emotional responses somehow implies irrational insanity.

 

How many times have I spoken to someone who has a perspective that is pro harm in some capacity and been told “ You’ll never win me over with that tone 😤 “.

When I use the tone they prefer “ Thank you for speaking to me in a respectful way 😃. I respect your views” and they go on living and voting the way they have before.

 

Now, I try to aim for conversations that are not screaming matches too. I feel better about such conversations afterwards. I like myself a little more afterwards.

I also acknowledge the tone and relaxedness of the conversation has NOTHING to do with whether or not someone is coming from a place of truth. 

You can be very calm and very wrong.

you can be very angry, emotionally charged and very right.

 

Unfortunately, when we expect or demand others are calm and respectful in conversation, we put the job of building bridges ENTIRELY on the person who will struggle far more with staying calm in conversation : the person who is standing up for rights that are not socially accepted as a valid fight.

It is very easy for people whose views are reflected by the majority to stay calm.

They have nothing to lose.

 

One side only truly feels angry when they do not feel RESPECTED in their views.

 

The other side lives every day trying to look for ways not to be angry, because anger is their default in a world where everything they love and value is threatened by the power of people who have nothing to lose except the feeling of RESPECT.

Can we please give the warriors a break when it comes to tone and their anger?

Can we listen to the essence of what they are saying rather than how they are saying it?

Isn’t the message or truth under the delivery far more important?

 

Why is our sense of respect ever valued higher than listening to why someone might be that angry?

 

As someone who does stand up for the values of animals and choices that include without standing for harm....I do think it is my responsibility to convey my truths in a way that others might hear it who do not agree. 

I also truly GET it when someone does not have the energy for doing that or is OVER it.

I also get how important it is to have a space where you don’t feel at war so that you can breathe and remember yourself before stepping out into the world again, creating forms that people can hear if they choose to listen.

 

 

 

I agree Stickyflames. It might also be true that the person who is of equable demeanour is more able to hear an opposing point of view. 

In an emotionally charged discussion you might often hear the same things said again and again by different people with slightly differing perspectives. You might also see someone with a different point of view called names. Like ‘white supremist’ or ‘(potential) troll.’ In order to see this in action you would have to read every post in this thread. 

Edited by Troubadour
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Stickyflames
26 minutes ago, Troubadour said:

I agree Stickyflames. It might also be true that the person who is of equable demeanour is more able to hear an opposing point of view. 

In an emotionally charged discussion you might often hear the same things said again and again by different people with slightly differing perspectives. You might also see someone with a different point of view called names. Like ‘white supremist’ or ‘(potential) troll.’ In order to see this in action you would have to read every post in this thread. 

Why are you more tolerant of the “ Trump” supporter than you are of a thread of people who are basically just saying “ We have boundaries” over and over?

Why is this thread more triggering to you?

 

There have been  times on TLE where I did not agree with the way a discussion was handled. I have participated in the gang ups against a view I did not like and felt kind of gross after. To me, it feels uncomfortable calling someone an idiot or asleep or whatever. I do it and I always feel silly for going there.

I also don’t like when threads go there, even if I agree with the causes behind them.

I also don’t think I am more or less awake or loving than those who are more aggressive in tone. I am more aggressive in tone sometimes and sometimes not.

I certainly have no idea what the RIGHT way to reach people is.

I certanly have no authority in declaring what boundaries people should or should not have.

I certainly have no idea what being awake is other than owning my own part in something with the information I have. If someone else can own how they participated confidently, maybe they are awake too? I don’t have it figured out.

 

You seem to have an idea of what Is loving and awake behaviour and what is not.

I certainly have no idea. I know I still participate in this community because it is the only spiritual community that seems to be able to pull their heads out of the clouds and talk about what it means to be human rather than just essences experiencing vastness. 

That humanness can be uncomfortable because it does not look “ loving” in any new age way. It looks human though. Yes’s and no’s. Not just yes’s.

There are communities out there that just practice the yes.

How on Earth can I say they are more awake? What authority do I possible have to rest that conclusion on? A world of yes , to me, feels like a half baked reality.

Edited by Stickyflames
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CurvyWords

@Stickyflames I love that you brought up Dirty John. I had sooo many feelings about the mother as a Priest in Passion as you can imagine.

 

Sometimes organized religion creates this kind of inherent competition. Especially within those who have been at a church for a long time, considered to be pillars of the community, almost like local saints themselves.

 

I have to believe that the mother's total ignorance of the situation, and her push to "forgive" not only the husband that killed one daughter but be lenient to the other husband that could have killed another was born out of that thing. That imprinting that tells Christians that the more tolerable they are of the intolerable, the more forgiving, loving, compassionate they are in the face of hatred and abuse, the most Christlike.

 

And let's face it, there is extreme social capital within Christian communities for those who present themselves as being above "petty" human emotions like rage, resentment, anger, hatred, lust. I believe the mother wasn't quite...well, honestly. I think she either couldn't effectively process what had happened to her daughter, and I think the ego was at work in her total forgiveness of her murderer, and of Debra's could-be murderer, John.

 

I think a shade of this same thing exists in new age spiritual places as well. This idea that one can transcend, be completely accepting and (passively) loving of all ills of humanity.

 

A few weeks ago, R&B singer Erykah Badu who is very heavily into alt spirituality and were many of us Black millennials first introduction into such things, came to the defense of R. Kelly. Her argument essentially being, her acceptance and love of him despite his heinous acts is proof of an evolved spiritual state. Those of us who were rejecting and judgmental of him were caught in "3D states of being". 

 

In an interview with Vulture, she also told the Jewish reporter she talked to that "Hitler was a painter." As she explained her point that even the worst of us still have beautiful things to admire. It was incredibly tone deaf and disgusting. Twitter let her have it but I'm reminded of that now. 

 

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