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Revisiting My Positon on Trump Followers

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Troubadour
21 minutes ago, Stickyflames said:

Why are you more tolerant of the “ Trump” supporter than you are of a thread of people who are basically just saying “ We have boundaries” over and over?

Why is this thread more triggering to you

It’s not. I didn’t say that or imply it. I’m not tolerant of Trump supporters. Perhaps if you read this thread you will see that I agreed with everything kurtis said in a very thoughtful post. 

 

21 minutes ago, Stickyflames said:

You seem to have an idea of what Is loving and awake behaviour and what is not

I do? Did I say something that makes you think that?

 

Edited by Troubadour
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Stickyflames
18 minutes ago, CurvyWords said:

@Stickyflames I love that you brought up Dirty John. I had sooo many feelings about the mother as a Priest in Passion as you can imagine.

 

Sometimes organized religion creates this kind of inherent competition. Especially within those who have been at a church for a long time, considered to be pillars of the community, almost like local saints themselves.

 

I have to believe that the mother's total ignorance of the situation, and her push to "forgive" not only the husband that killed one daughter but be lenient to the other husband that could have killed another was born out of that thing. That imprinting that tells Christians that the more tolerable they are of the intolerable, the more forgiving, loving, compassionate they are in the face of hatred and abuse, the most Christlike.

 

And let's face it, there is extreme social capital within Christian communities for those who present themselves as being above "petty" human emotions like rage, resentment, anger, hatred, lust. I believe the mother wasn't quite...well, honestly. I think she either couldn't effectively process what had happened to her daughter, and I think the ego was at work in her total forgiveness of her murderer, and of Debra's could-be murderer, John.

 

I think a shade of this same thing exists in new age spiritual places as well. This idea that one can transcend, be completely accepting and (passively) loving of all ills of humanity.

 

A few weeks ago, R&B singer Erykah Badu who is very heavily into alt spirituality and were many of us Black millennials first introduction into such things, came to the defense of R. Kelly. Her argument essentially being, her acceptance and love of him despite his heinous acts is proof of an evolved spiritual state. Those of us who were rejecting and judgmental of him were caught in "3D states of being". 

 

In an interview with Vulture, she also told the Jewish reporter she talked to that "Hitler was a painter." As she explained her point that even the worst of us still have beautiful things to admire. It was incredibly tone deaf and disgusting. Twitter let her have it but I'm reminded of that now. 

 

I like that you bring up Erykah Badu.

The thing is,  I don’t disagree with her. I think people who do bad things have as much right to evolve as anybody else. 

There is good in everyone. There is innocence in everyone. People have the right to be loved. Even the most vile amongst us, I really hope they have people who see the good in them around them....just as much as I hope they have people who will honestly tell them “ You fucked up”. I don’t wish anybody a life of rotting while everyone looks at them in disgust until they die. I feel like when we collectively JUST focus on how evil someone is, it is as much a limiting conversation as just talking about how saintly someone is.

I hate hating people. It feels painful in my body.

Blindly loving people feels painful in my body LATER.

I think the middle ground is in the authenticity.

 

Her statements felt like a brushing off of everything he did. 

Maybe it was authentic for her, maybe her experiences in life have made it easier to get there authentically. For her audience though, they needed to have the conversation of the pain first. I don’t think we can talk about the love before we really talk about the wound. Collectively, the wound was too fresh.

Edited by Stickyflames
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CurvyWords

@Stickyflames I agree, ultimately, I mean. I'm not there yet, but I see the value in what you are saying and I know that it is a potential Destination after all the pain, anger, disgust, and hurt clears away. My issue with it is like you said, not giving people time enough to grieve, and rage.

 

And also, I believe when you are a famous person and espousing these "love evil anyway" rhetoric, and you know it's incendiary and contrarian, it could be better to just.....like....I don't know....shut the fuck up? Sometimes? Like LMAO clearly not always, if you feel that way, it's fine, hold that space of acceptance and love in your heart, shine with it, treat people on a one-on-one level with it.

 

But to me when you sit across from a descendant of Holocaust survivors, and they say this to you, so you pivot the conversation to how you have found something to love about Hitler and kind of, lowkey imply that they would be a more aware and expanded and evolved soul if they only could too, you get into really icky territory. There's a lack of respect there, you know?

 

I am definitely not of the Throw All Evil People In Cosmic Hell belief, but, if it is my choice to reach out and try to heal and teach and love someone who has done wrong privately, it is my choice. Standing on the national stage with it? It's hard for it to NOT feel like a spitting in the face of victims.

 

Am I making sense?

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Stickyflames
2 minutes ago, CurvyWords said:

@Stickyflames I agree, ultimately, I mean. I'm not there yet, but I see the value in what you are saying and I know that it is a potential Destination after all the pain, anger, disgust, and hurt clears away. My issue with it is like you said, not giving people time enough to grieve, and rage.

 

And also, I believe when you are a famous person and espousing these "love evil anyway" rhetoric, and you know it's incendiary and contrarian, it could be better to just.....like....I don't know....shut the fuck up? Sometimes? Like LMAO clearly not always, if you feel that way, it's fine, hold that space of acceptance and love in your heart, shine with it, treat people on a one-on-one level with it.

 

But to me when you sit across from a descendant of Holocaust survivors, and they say this to you, so you pivot the conversation to how you have found something to love about Hitler and kind of, lowkey imply that they would be a more aware and expanded and evolved soul if they only could too, you get into really icky territory. There's a lack of respect there, you know?

 

I am definitely not of the Throw All Evil People In Cosmic Hell belief, but, if it is my choice to reach out and try to heal and teach and love someone who has done wrong privately, it is my choice. Standing on the national stage with it? It's hard for it to NOT feel like a spitting in the face of victims.

 

Am I making sense?

 

Yeah, I understand what you are saying.

we should never force forgiveness or love.

 

it HAS to be authentic.

 

I think it is authentic for her. She seems like she has seen a lot of shit.

How can I know for sure though? She has that rambling from another universe quality about her that I relate to. I say stupid shit like that too and am thankful I don’t have many followers listening to my every word. I think she comes from a good place though.

 

You have someone like Oprah, for example, who has similar perspectives in seeing the good in people and life...but Oprah never goes there without talking about the pain and creating a conversation around it. I feel like that is far more important than just swishing around how innocent everyone is. YES, it is TRUE but the only way to that truth is through the pain. 

 

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CurvyWords

@Stickyflames I'm not sure it is. But I am also a Skeptic who is learning that I am sometimes wrong (very difficult stuff if you were wondering). I really think for some people that kind of lofty, detached perspective often only applies to OTHER people's harm and atrocities. When it comes to their own, they're just as hurt and hateful as the rest of us. 

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Stickyflames
Just now, CurvyWords said:

@Stickyflames I'm not sure it is. But I am also a Skeptic who is learning that I am sometimes wrong (very difficult stuff if you were wondering). I really think for some people that kind of lofty, detached perspective often only applies to OTHER people's harm and atrocities. When it comes to their own, they're just as hurt and hateful as the rest of us. 

Yeah, for sure.

I have not hung around Badu in her day to day life.

willing to be wrong.

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Faye
2 hours ago, Stickyflames said:

Yeah, for sure.

I have not hung around Badu in her day to day life.

willing to be wrong.

I really appreciate this mini conversation between the two of you! It is enlightening. I wanted to say that I agree with @CurvyWords. There are reasons people go off to remote regions to become monks. I would venture to guess all of the time, unless it is cultural, is because they are running away from their pain. I have no doubt this lofty, detached perspective is a different manifestation of the same desire. The truth is that you do not have to be around a person to know their pain. Ask the Servers and Priests in the room. Though anybody can do it.

 

I have zero doubt Erica Badu thinks she is coming from a good place and I can understand that good place. I was once in it. But shouldn't it be our responsibility to say there might be a better way if we know of a better way? Rather than sitting back saying, "I can't be sure."?

Edited by MichaelE
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Troubadour
11 hours ago, Troy said:

Uh oh... be careful. This is pure fabrication and speculation that you may have come up with to suit a biased investment in a viewpoint

Actually, I didn’t say that. I said that 10 people have stopped posting...  and it’s not speculation. The vegan issue would be a case in point. If you read the posts to see who came under attack and check if they have posted since I think you will find some examples. 

You are the leader here Troy. Your example is followed. And I think the post that I have quoted from here is a good example. Read the language used. Perhaps you can find another way.

I am not going to leave this group unless you ban me. I am a Michael student and I care what happens here.

There is a also couple of posts toward the end of this thread that you may find interesting. 

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Leela Corman

@CurvyWords "Hitler was a painter"? Oy gevalt. She really said that? Oy.

 

Hitler was a bad painter, who was rejected from the academy in Vienna (coincidentally, in the same year that Egon Schiele graduated, if I remember correctly). He would later go after Modern artists with great vehemence, confiscating their works, labeling them as "Degenerate", and exhibiting them in this notorious show:
https://www.moma.org/calendar/exhibitions/3868

 

Artists such as George Grosz, Max Beckmann, Otto Dix, Paul Klee and many more. Artists of the Neue Sachlichkeit (New Objectivity) movement, who were often veterans of WW1 and whose work unflinchingly depicted that war's horrors, such as maimed veterans begging in the streets of Berlin, war widows forced into sex work, and Dix's many visceral prints and paintings of battlefields; when they weren't telling the truth about war they were painting and drawing the Weimar era demimonde (Schad, Mammen, etc. along with the above artists). Also artists of the Bauhaus school, the forward-thinking, groundbreaking interdisciplinary school that gave equal space and education to women, and that is essentially responsible for much of what we consider "the modern world" in terms of visual and industrial design, design education, and more. The Nazis closed down the Bauhaus in 1933 and arrested some of its personnel. The Degenerate Art Exhibition was held in 1937, and consisted of all of these incredible artists, and more, portrayed as examples of sick, immoral and dangerous to society...and exhibited opposite those works was the art the Nazis deemed to be healthy and proper: Fascist kitsch of muscular blonde heterosexual Aryans in pretty landscapes. Fascism uses art to tell its story and sell its poisons, and no Fascist regime used it so effectively as Hitler's; look, as well, at the architecture of Albert Speer and the films of Leni Riefenstahl. It's pretty stunning. So, yeah, Hitler was a painter - a frustrated one who probably resented that all the glory was going to Modernists instead of guys like him who just wanted to paint sedate European landscapes (not that there's anything wrong with that intrinsically but you know what I'm saying).

 

Another interesting item about the Degenerate exhibition is that many young art students raced to see it because they knew it would likely be their last opportunity to see some of the greatest works of art of their time. And indeed, many paintings were destroyed after the show. Not all, of course. Thankfully. And as well, the exhibition showed the paintings of Emil Nolde, who was a committed Nazi and complained about being included. But his Modernist paintings upset the regime.

 

Hitler was a painter. Charles Manson was a songwriter!

 

(I hope you know I'm not ranting at you, @CurvyWords, I really hope this doesn't come across that way!)

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Joanne
On 3/16/2019 at 11:34 PM, Troubadour said:

Have you noticed how many former active TLE people no longer post? In the  last 6 months the number must be greater than 10. 

@Troubadour I am one of the former active TLE people who hasn't posted in awhile and it has nothing to do with any of the reasons that you have stated. 

 

For me, things have changed, life got busy and, now, I just don't have the same amount of time to be as active here on TLE as I once did; just like @Troy had mentioned! I try to stay up to date with the emails that I get from the members that I follow, and when I do sign in, I barely have time to catch up on the newest transcripts sooo, not much commenting happening from me! I also know that when things settle down for me and I have the time to check back in "The Community" will be welcoming again!

 

I thinks it's irresponsible to suggest that ALL the people who were once active on TLE that have not posted anything in the last 6 months is because of, at times, some heated debates that have gone on between Troy and some community members. 

 

With all that being said, I have to admit, this community can get pretty heated in certain discussions...not my thing but, to each his own! 🤐

 

I will say this though, the man doesn't want any "WHITE SUPREMACIST IDEOLOGY" on his site!!! GEEZ!!! IT'S HIS SITE!!! He is free to feel, think and do what he wants to with the Community that he has Created and Nurtured!! 

 

Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree...😬

 

Cheers Troy -

 

 

 

 

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Troy

Hey everyone!

 

I would really love everyone to take pause for a moment to honor and take note of the overall tone of exchange in this thread and how, even in its escalation, everyone was so patient and willing and honest and clear and authentic and even kind. Everyone was. 

 

If this kind of passionate conversation feels terrifying and hostile, then you either don’t get out much or you have never belonged to any other online platform before. 

 

Because, come on, this thread is beautiful and frustrating, passionate and tedious, but not something to avoid or fear or cause you to shut down and run for your life. 

 

The worst thread that ever happened on TLE was almost the same as this one except for a couple of ugly exchanges that had a few people clutching their pearls. Apologies and clarifications were exchanged and all was well.  

 

With thousands and thousands of posts a year of amazing and intimate and warm and generous exchanges, it’s really hard for me to understand anyone who would define this community or lecture or scold any one of us for these relatively rare heated exchanges. 

 

I feel like we have it really good here! The people here are amazing to me and I am inspired on a regular basis by everyone who participates.

 

So I just wanted to say thank you and express my appreciation and gratitude for being the most loving and warm and generous and passionate and honest and welcoming of communities I’ve ever been a known.  

 

Just feeling mushy tonight. Love and rainbows all around!

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JeanneS

First of all, I am about as far from a Trump supporter as a human can get without being discarnate.  Second, I am cautious when it comes to outright banning of people from anywhere due to their beliefs.  If they are disruptive or mean or gross or violent, then sure--ban them.  But if they come in and indicate a willingness to learn--I am open to that.  I do get tired of people who continue to argue for Trump's policies ad nauseum.  And, it is nice to have conversations where those people aren't constantly butting in with half-truths about pizza shop sex rings, etc.  But I have come to realize that it is my problem that I get tired of them.  False personality gets annoyed and angry at people who are different from us.  And I truly believe that me being my best self and inserting calm and rationality to conversations does help them learn--even if it doesn't seem like it does.

 

I will say, I honestly don't "get" the love for Trump himself.  No matter what he does, a certain segment of the population loves him.  It's like a cult.  But what I understand on an intellectual level is that these people are scared.  And Trump is the Daddy who is telling them he will take care of the boogey monsters.  There is a part of me that has compassion for them--although my compassion does not absolve them if they act on that fear.

 

Jose Stevens and others have indicated that Trump and his supporters are here to wake us up.  Stevens calls Trump and his cabinet "The Wrecking Crew."  They are here with a spiritual purpose (weird though it may seem)--to make sure that we don't remain complacent to the horrors of our current system.  This feels right to me.  If Hillary had won, we would have been able to go along and stay in our little bubbles, ignoring how corrupt things have gotten.   Trump and his henchpeople are forcing us to see the horror and act to make it better.

 

Also, I do understand the concept of parallel universes where Hillary did win.  That doesn't interest me here because I am living in a parallel where Trump won.

 

I am a cis, white woman.  I have a certain amount of privilege that allows me to insulate myself from people I don't like and don't agree with.  But, I also experience situations where I feel like I am not heard and not understood and I hate those situations (in fact, I have experienced that on this site).  Therefore, I want to try (although it's tough) to hear those whose beliefs are different from mine.  And, if they are open to discussion, I am happy to talk.  I won't spend too much time banging my head against a wall for folks who just want to spout what they heard on Breitbart.  But, if I can help them see that maybe Breitbart is not a good place to get their news, then maybe I've helped the world a little bit.

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Troy
1 minute ago, JeanneS said:

Second, I am cautious when it comes to outright banning of people from anywhere due to their beliefs.

 

Just to be clear: no one has ever or will ever be banned from TLE for their beliefs. That has yet to happen or to be a problem. My statement about all of this is that people who support White Supremacy are not welcome here. That's a fair statement because they aren't welcome here, but IF someone wishes to be here despite not being welcome and they do the work of trying to understand and grow, I am 100% for all of that. If they argue in favor of White Supremacy or apply that ideology here on anyone, they could get banned. Beliefs can be changed and evolve. I'm all for that.

 

5 minutes ago, JeanneS said:

Jose Stevens and others have indicated that Trump and his supporters are here to wake us up. 

 

I 100% disagree with this and find this to be one of those dangers of New Age and religious beliefs. To imbue hateful, violent and bigoted people and their hateful ideology with some kind of noble agenda is delusional and really unhealthy. It's like saying your husband who beats you is just doing that to make you stronger. It's a really ugly philosophy to encourage people to think that way.

 

I think that a more balanced and healthy way of looking at all of this is what Michael says about how it doesn't matter so much what happens TO us as much as what WE DO with what happens to us. Trump and his cult are not here to teach us a damn thing. BUT... we can learn from anything. And if we can learn how to transform or dismantle a wave of hate and violence this time instead of excusing it into a holocaust, that would be awesome. Whether Hillary or Trump was elected, we would want to learn these things. The only metaphysical element I can see is what Michael said about how if Hillary had won, the other side might have lashed out in full-blown waves of violence and war, which would have been really difficult to overcome, but with Trump's win they are more appeased and we are able to better manage the flow of our addressing these old wounds in humanity and help encourage conscious evolution through this. So, if anything, these hateful and violent bigots are not here to teach us anything, but we have a chance to teach each other and them.

 

19 minutes ago, JeanneS said:

I am a cis, white woman.  I have a certain amount of privilege that allows me to insulate myself from people I don't like and don't agree with.  But, I also experience situations where I feel like I am not heard and not understood and I hate those situations (in fact, I have experienced that on this site).  Therefore, I want to try (although it's tough) to hear those whose beliefs are different from mine.  And, if they are open to discussion, I am happy to talk.  I won't spend too much time banging my head against a wall for folks who just want to spout what they heard on Breitbart.  But, if I can help them see that maybe Breitbart is not a good place to get their news, then maybe I've helped the world a little bit.

 

Maybe this sheds some light on how things can get tense for some of the straight white folks in this community. Please hear me out: When you are so used to the luxury of everything only being a matter of opinion, it's easy to think that we should be more flexible and forgiving and open and embracing of differences. But for many, it is way Way WAY beyond being only about differences of opinions. It is about life and death. It's about our differences being showcased and framed in such a way that they are justifications for someone to kill us, refuse us shelter, refuse us a job, refuse medical care, refuse marriage, refuse to sit in a Star Bucks, refuse to bake us a cake, and on and on and on...etc.

 

It can be really hard for some to understand why we don't have the luxury (or the interest) in being open to people and ideas that are specifically aimed at harming others and that those ideas are fully in effect. So if you have ever felt you weren't heard or you were misunderstood in a discussion like this, it might not be because you weren't heard or that you were misunderstood. It might be just the opposite and someone just didn't "agree to disagree." <<--- a favorite White People phrase that let's "both sides be right")) I don't know. But it's worth thinking about.

 

I mean, think about it... I've noticed that in nearly every instance, if not every instance, where the rare conversation gets escalated on TLE, it is because a straight white man has decided that his perspective and position should be the standard, accepted and unquestioned or he says that he is not being heard or taken seriously. We get to hear all about his disappointment and his criticism of this community (and me). We spend days and days giving him and his ideas constant attention and the original topic is completely lost. But... he is the one who wasn't heard? 

 

These are the things that People of Color and LGBTQIA+ and Immigrants and many Women have to deal with all of the time, every day, every damn conversation. And I mean, EVERY conversation...  We speak up and champion a position and perspective... and it gets completely obliterated by the opinions and perspectives of those who only know the Straight White Man Paradigm.

 

DISCLAIMER: This is a reality that all of us are navigating now, and there are many many woke straight white males and females on board and doing their best to bring about a shift. But even the best of us White People can have blind spots that we really need to bring some awareness to and to rethink and reconsider. Even as a gay man, I have had to do the same thing with my maleness and my whiteness, so this post isn't meant to be an insult or a better-than-you post. It's just important that we take a breath and really think about this reality that we are leaving behind and the new one we want to create.

 

 

 

 

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JeanneS

@Troy  I will admit that I dislike the way you mischaracterize what I said.  I didn't say that it's just fine for a husband to beat his wife in service to a spiritual lesson.  And I didn't say that wars were awesome.  And I certainly didn't say that any of this was noble--that is your word.

 

What I did say is that it feels right to me (what Michael calls inner validation) that Trump and Co are here with a purpose.  I don't like the purpose.  And I honestly prefer that we didn't need the purpose.  But I agree with Stevens that Trump and Co are exposing for us in plain sight the infected underbelly of our current political (and social) system.  What is more shocking to me than anything is that there are so many rocks to overturn--It's like they keep turning over rocks that expose the festering pus-filled underbellies that have been stinking up the garden all this time.  We need to expose the yuck in order to clean it out.  It's like a wound that has been allowed to get infected and fester--we need to see the problem and evacuate the pus in order to let it heal.  But we can't evacuate what we can't see.

 

I also did not say that I am happy to "agree to disagree."  Again those are your words.  That is anathema to me.  If someone wants to "agree to disagree" that slavery is OK (or whatever), I will argue with them until I am hoarse. 

 

Also, I did not say that there are 2 sides to every issue--again, those are your words.  What I said is that I try to see the wounding from which these people are acting.  It's part of my nature.  If I can see the wounding, I can have some compassion.  This doesn't mean I agree with them or that I give them a pass.  But I wholeheartedly believe that compassion is a desired reaction for me. 

 

I am of the philosophy: "If you see something, say something."  Silence is not an option.  BTW, it's also doubly not an option for me because I am a Sage, lol.  But, I operate in ways that are maybe not ways you particularly condone.  But that's OK.  I don't need your permission to do good in my own communities in my own ways. 

 

You seem to imply that since I am a white, cis woman I have no experience with prejudice or hate or hardship and that I am somehow aligned with the White Male Paradigm.  You don't know me.  And you don't know my story.  Also, your entire response is to derail what I said, put words in my mouth, and reframe what I said in ways that I didn't say or intend to say.  I find it interesting that that's a fairly common tactic for White Males when talking to women.

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Troy
3 hours ago, JeanneS said:
 
 
 
26 minutes ago, JeanneS said:

I will admit that I dislike the way you mischaracterize what I said.  I didn't say that it's just fine for a husband to beat his wife in service to a spiritual lesson.  And I didn't say that wars were awesome.  And I certainly didn't say that any of this was noble--that is your word.  What I did say is that it feels right to me (what Michael calls inner validation) that Trump and Co are here with a purpose.

 

Jeanne, thank you for taking the time to respond and please know I am not trying to villainize you or fault you for anything. I'm just trying to clear a path here so that everyone is on board and understanding what is at stake here. I very much appreciate your perspective and your being vulnerable in sharing them here. Please do not take any of my counter-responses as anything more than a friendly exchange of ideas. We are on the same side, so if you are having a hard time hearing and understanding me, I don't know what you would be able to do with a Trump follower.

 

I do want to be clear that I never said you said it is fine for a husband to beat his wife and I never said you said wars were awesome. Please scrap that if you thought that's what I meant. I never said you said those things at all.

 

I did say that it is unhealthy to imbue some sort of "noble" purpose in people who support or apply hateful ideology because when someone says that Trump and his followers "are here with a purpose," and that purpose is somehow to improve us or teach us or provide us with revelations, then it's not a big leap to say that the purpose is "noble." Because if a group of people is said to be helping humanity to evolve and grow, then it can easily be said that they have a noble purpose, right? So it's also not a big leap to say that when we imbue Trump and his followers with some higher purpose, it really isn't that different from saying that an abusive husband also serves a higher purpose. 

 

If you mean that they "are here with a purpose" and that purpose is to destroy as many lives as possible, then please disregard my counterargument. Then we are in total agreement. 

 

3 hours ago, JeanneS said:

I also did not say that I am happy to "agree to disagree."  Again those are your words.

 

I never said you said those words. I'm using words to describe various scenarios and examples. Context is everything and in the context of my sentence, I was suggesting ideas and things to think about, not quoting you.

 

3 hours ago, JeanneS said:

Also, I did not say that there are 2 sides to every issue--again, those are your words.

 

I never said you said that.

 

3 hours ago, JeanneS said:

What I said is that I try to see the wounding from which these people are acting.  It's part of my nature.  If I can see the wounding, I can have some compassion.  This doesn't mean I agree with them or that I give them a pass.  But I wholeheartedly believe that compassion is a desired reaction for me. 

 

I totally agree with you and relate to this! This is true of those who are targets of hate and violence, as well. So please understand that we are on the same side.

 

But please hear me out:

 

It's just that the difference is, you may have the luxury and privilege and protection to do so from the comfort and safety of your world which may be very distant from the abuses and suffering caused by these people.  And before you say that I don't know you and don't know your suffering, I want to say that you are right... I don't know you and I don't know your suffering. But if someone can claim that they would be okay with sharing space with and extending a welcome to a White Supremacist or their supporters, then your suffering is probably something very different from those who are targeted by White Supremacists. Try to understand that people who are suffering the consequences of White Supremacy do NOT have the luxury of (or the interest in) tending to the innocent wounds of those who abuse them before they tend to their own wounds and the wounds of their loved ones.

 

No one is saying you are wrong for having the position and perspective that you have. In fact, more power to you! I'm very glad that there are people willing and able to take on these hateful people from a different angle than I can. I'm not in any position (nor should I be) that can so easily welcome a White Supremacist or homophobic bigot into my space. 

 

For example... I was live-streaming my video game playing on Mixer yesterday and someone came into my chat room and called me a "FUCKING FILTHY FAGGOT" and other awful things before the automated chat moderator banned him from the chat room. No matter how adult I am or how safe I was in my living room, that shit kicks you in the gut.

 

Why would anyone expect that I welcome or endure that in my space or my world?

 

This was just yesterday. This is something I have to navigate regularly. I don't have any control over how much this permeates the world around me. So any little corner of space and time that I have where I do NOT have to be called a filthy faggot or told that I should kill myself, I am going to nurture that space WITHOUT the homophobic bigots. Right? Don't you think that is okay to support?

 

It's always been a part of my life, but at age 51, I have now been called faggot and told to die, kill myself, or have been threatened to be killed, more times in the past 4 years of Trump than in the first 47 years of my life. And those are just the words part of things. We aren't counting the times I have had to recoil in terror to avoid being brutally attacked just for being who I am, or when I've actually been assaulted. And then let's not even get into the Rights and Freedoms and Laws that we have to fight for on a regular basis. 

 

So I beg of you... please let us have a break where we can get a break.

 

People of color experience this on a scale that even I can't imagine, even with my huge common ground of understanding. So I know it can be difficult for anyone who has only witnessed it from a distance to truly grasp what we are dealing with here. But please listen when we tell you what we need and what we don't need and listen when we say what is best for ourselves in how to navigate all of this.

 

When you showcase your choices to "see the wounding" and describe this as "part of my nature,"  and that you believe "wholeheartedly that compassion is a desired reaction,"... can you maybe see how insulting and offensive that might be to those of us who don't have that luxury? We make those same choices and have those same aspirations! They just look different from where we are because we are in a different position from you. That's all. We are on the same side, just different angles.

 

I say this for every person on TLE from any vulnerable and targeted group who has had to watch a few well-intentioned TLE Members comment on how we should be friendlier and more welcoming to those who threaten our lives and want us dead:  I do hope you can see how truly offensive it might be when someone holds themselves up as an example of what compassion and acceptance and what being evolved looks like versus those of us who need to draw clear boundaries and say No to the barrage of assaults on our Being. It feels awful. It feels really awful to have to explain this to anyone. Especially from people we know mean well. We respond with patience and detailed responses and continued effort to help you to understand where we are coming from. What we are doing here has to count as compassion, too. It is already exhausting trying to get people who are already on our side to understand these things. I'll take on this challenge because I care about this community, but please forgive me for not wanting to host a conversation here to debate whether I have a right to live or exist at all.

 

I say if you can get a Racist, Homophobic, Xenophobic, Sexist, White Supremacist to see the light, HALLELUJAH!! PLEASE do so! Or keep trying when you feel you have a chance. I'm all for your position and perspective and I don't fault you a single bit for having it and wanting to do something good with it.

 

But I say use your position and compassion to make a difference. I would avoid using your position to suggest a more evolved or accepting or loving way compared to those who are already being bombarded with how unwanted and unloved they are in the world. Maybe use your compassion and love and the effort to see the innocence and wounding for those who are actually right here, right now, wanting and willing to receive your affection and understanding and acceptance. 

 

None of this is complicated or about right or wrong in how we implement compassion. Let's be compassionate, not competitive.

 

3 hours ago, JeanneS said:

You seem to imply that since I am a white, cis woman I have no experience with prejudice or hate or hardship and that I am somehow aligned with the White Male Paradigm.  You don't know me.  And you don't know my story.  Also, your entire response is to derail what I said, put words in my mouth, and reframe what I said in ways that I didn't say or intend to say.  I find it interesting that that's a fairly common tactic for White Males when talking to women.

 

You are right. I don't know your story, so if you have suffered like people of color and LGBTQIA+ and like many women, then none of what I have said should be confusing, surprising, or even worth debating. I'm glad you might have some common ground of understanding, but also very sorry if you do share in that common ground because it sucks.

 

I already addressed all of the things you thought I said you said, so hopefully, that is put to rest.

 

I do not mean to offend you or derail what you said. If you feel I misunderstood anything you said, I am totally open to correction and clarification. I'm listening.

 

As for this being some tactic of mine as a white male trying to derail a woman, I have to tell you that you are wrong because this is just me and how I talk to everyone and there is no hidden agenda or tactic. BUT it is totally fair for you to wonder if that's what I am doing since that IS a tactic I'm sure you have had to endure. I'm just not doing that here.

 

I will definitely keep in mind your concerns that I might be using that tactic so I can maybe help avoid your feeling that way. I'm very sorry that you did feel that way at all. 

 

Hang in there with me!

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Troubadour

I may have found a way to make myself even less popular. Here ‘tis...

What a conundrum! We seem to go around in circles. The same thing gets said again and again and this needs to happen because those of us who are less marginalised are completely unable to understand or empathise with those who are more marginalised. 

Unfortunately it appears that it is not just straight white males who are unable to make these distinctions. Apparently straight white females suffer the same unfortunate affliction.  But not quite as badly. Obviously the straight white males have it way better. Their lives are easy compared to straight white females lives. (But don’t feel sorry for them. There are people here whose lives are even more marginalised than that!)

Not to worry. 

I may have come up with a solution! Why don’t we have a moderator? Obviously this person will have to be the most marginalised person on the forum or a person who is even more marginalised will be able to counter any proposition by simply pointing out how much more marginalised they are! 

All we have to do is find out who is right at the top of the marginalised hierarchy and make them moderator until someone comes along who can out-marginalise them. 

And never fear, because the moderator will be the most sensitive to potential attacks from outside the group (especially  from Trump supporters) and will warn the rest of us well before we could even have had an inkling that an attack was coming.

Edited by Troubadour
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Troy

@Troubadour you are dangerously close to crossing a line, if you haven’t crossed it already. This callous and sarcastic mocking of vulnerable people affected by this subject is really shitty and very revealing of where you are coming from. This is an ugly reaction and it won’t be forgotten by me.

 

As a member of this community, your objections have been duly noted and you have received multiple patient, compassionate, and thorough responses. This is a community where members can get a break and find sanctuary from white supremacists and their supporters. If you can’t accept or understand that, then I don’t know what more to say to you.   

 

But I’m asking you kindly and with every compassionate ounce of patience in my Being... that this be the last time you add insult to injury by mocking vulnerable people and their varying degrees of oppression and suffering. As a fellow member of TLE and Michael Student and as a fucking decent human being, stop it. 

 

Thank you. 

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Philip Wittmeyer

Because I am not a member of an oppressed or marginalized class, and have therefore not been victimized as a member of a class, and have therefore not developed the sensitivities and filters and tendency to some kind or other of reactivity that such an experience would typically provide, I might be unequipped to evaluate if the following referenced socio-cultural phenomenon has any actual relevance to this particular discussion, although it seems to me to be in the same general ballpark:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression_Olympics

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KurtisM

@Philip Wittmeyer

I think what that's talking about is the idea that we need to compare our pain and suffering to determine how valid our pain and suffering are.

 

I used to deal with the idea that I did not deserve to feel pain and to suffer because others had it way worse. If ever I caught myself feeling bad about something, anything really, I then condemned myself for that because "Why am I angry/hurt/complaining? I have it better than most. I should be grateful."

It led me to keep ignoring and suppressing my actual feelings, while wanting to feel those feelings.

I eventually ended up reversing this so that whenever I felt happy and grateful, I would condemn myself: "Why are you happy? Others have it so much worse than you. You don't deserve to feel happy because you are enjoying yourself when others don't even have clean water, healthy food and shelter."

In short: I didn't deserve anything. You feel happy? You're being selfish. You feel sad? You're being ungrateful.

 

I brought this up on TLE one time and someone called out the Delusion on me.

They told me that I was turning life into a competition of suffering, and that if deserving suffering were a truth only one person in the whole world would ever be allowed to suffer. They helped me see that my fears and experiences were actually valid for me, not less or more than that of others.

This was eventually reinforced as I came to study more on the Resource-based Economy and our shift into a Mature Soul Paradigm. I started realizing that if we learn to solve and heal our own issues, and if we learn to enjoy the pleasures of life, we create a sense of replenishment that helps us better reach out to others and help them.

How can we ever hope to make a difference if we're focused on every reason we don't make a difference?

So I stopped thinking my issues weren't issues, and I stopped avoiding or postponing pleasure until I was "good enough".

 

The same can go with any person or group that has been oppressed- empathizing with others oppression helps you realize you're fighting against oppression, not fighting for a pedestal of righteousness.

You create a web of unity and empowerment by saying suffering doesn't define you, choice and healing and thriving do.

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JeanneS

@Troy  Thank you for your kind reply.  And, at the end of the day, we are on the same side.  My original reply to this topic was to express my desire to not ban those who might be open to differing ideas (I probably didn't read your post as closely as I should have).  It wasn't to say we need to welcome White Supremacists here and let them run riot over the conversations.  If someone wants to come here and spew hate, then I am all for banning them.

 

And I do think our conversation has devolved a bit into what  @Philip Wittmeyer brought up in terms of the Oppression Olympics.  I think this is what @Troubadour was also touching on it his clumsy and sarcastic way.  It doesn't do much good to try to top each other in who has more oppression.  My original purpose in stating my status as a white cis woman was an attempt at being as transparent as possible.  What I think it might have done was make you want to point out to me that I don't have as much oppression as you do and therefore don't understand enough to have the "correct" attitude towards this topic.

 

I am also trying to place this discussion within a Michael frame.  I would have some differing answers if I was talking to someone who wasn't a Michael student.  I am an Idealist in Growth.  So, I have a tendency see everything as a lesson for me to learn and grow from.   And Growth has given me a variety of intensely difficult experiences from which to learn and grow.  I am also feeling called at this time in my life to examine my own reactions that are based on False Personality.  This is where my desire to approach things with compassion comes from.  Trying to find compassionate towards these people is super-challenging and it doesn't absolve them from their hateful behavior.  Being compassionate for me does not mean I give them a pass or allow them to behave badly.  We are still on the physical plane dealing with the realities of physical actions.

 

Being an Idealist is maybe why I find the concept of Trump and Co being here for a purpose so compelling.   I am keeping in mind that we have many agreements that we make on the astral before each incarnation.   Why is it so crazy to be open to the concept that Trump and Co have an agreement to do what they are doing in order to wake us up?   I don't think it's noble--in the same way I don't think that my agreement to marry my husband is noble.  It just is.  And it has played out in ways that seem to validate (for me) the concept that has a purpose to wake us up.

 

In addition, saying that it is an agreement situation does not mean that it's good or that I like it or that I am happy it happened.  It has unleashed the kraken of racism and classism and homophobia.  But at least now we can see the kraken and how big it is.  I think the fact that these people feel free to spew the hate in open ways lets us see where the pockets of pus are and fight them and heal them.

 

Thanks for listening.

Edited by JeanneS
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Leela Corman

I would like to encourage people to look up Intersectionality, and replace "oppression olympics" with that. The discourse around intersectionality is rich and helpful.

 

@Troy I just want to thank you for every single thing you wrote. It's so well-said and so detailed and I am so tired and so unhappy about other things that I can't respond specifically but DAMN, yes.

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Christian

^THIS.

 

This was something that I learned from this group.

 

It was several experiences that brought it into focus and allowed a re-evaluation of what I thought I knew.

 

When you begin to understand how different identies interact, you begin to see how it affects a life.

 

It would be nice to say there is no hierarchy.  But that would be false.  Privilage is a thing that exists.  If you break it just into the binary of male or female...men have 'more' than women.  When start adding all the different intersections of race, sex, gender, sexuality, wealth, immigrant status, etc....things get messy.  It becomes so messy that, as straight white American dude, it can seem eaeier to say it's all bullshit and just a stupid competition.

 

That's privillage speaking.

 

Because it is a thing that exists, that the society that we live in has ingrained into us from birth, it is very easy to misuse and abuse without even consciously realizing it. As has been demostrated in this post.

 

It is assumed that Micheal students are here to learn and learn how to learn.  Opportunity, has been given for learning here.  It is suggested that it be taken. 

 

 

This guy explains it very well from a straight white dude.

 

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Juni

In  Peggy Orenstein's 1991 book Schoolgirls , she recounts a story. A teacher realized that the girls were being called on far less than the boys. So,  in order to be sure everyone was being called on equally, a teacher started alternating calling on both boys and girls.  The boys immediately started complaining. Even after the teacher explained they were going down the attendance sheet to be sure the numbers were equal, the boys perceived it as a loss.
The boys perceived equality as a loss.  But the girls were simply being given room to speak for a change.
This is not an  isolated example, nor is it restricted to gender, of course. See also: Eakins study on college faculty meetings, Elizabeth Aires on college groups, Elisabeth Bik (Twitter).

 The idea that being told no to dysfunctional behaviour is not permissible is also privilege in action. But no one is actually losing anything.(apart from the delusion that privilege equals personal merit, which, frankly deserves to die)  Space is being made for those who never got to have any, before. Scarcity is a toxic concept and based in lies, where respect is concerned. 
Space to be heard, helped, respected, honoured. 
Why would anyone object to this? (Don't @ me, this is rhetorical!)
Make some room. There's plenty for everyone.

Edited by Juni
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Stickyflames

At the end of his statement, Bolsonaro said, “In conclusion, may I say that Brazil and the United States stand side by side in their efforts to ensure liberties and respect to the traditional family lifestyles and respect to God, our creator, against the gender ideology and the politically correct attitudes and against fake news.”

 

This is what the president of Brazil said standing next to Trump as Trump smirked and nodded in full agreement.

This is why there is zero argument over who Troy, as a gay man, should or should not allow in a community he created. 

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