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Lake Superior, North Shore (Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada)


WolfAmethyst
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1 hour ago, AnnaD said:

Where is the Lone White Fucked Up Gunman when we need them? These people need a bullet to the head. I love the "Go intubate yourself" response. These people need to die, but at NO EXPENSE to others around them. But they can't do that, can they? Because MY RIGHTS.

I understand your frustration, but I'm getting out of my hiding spot to stop you right there.
Wishing death on people is NEVER a solution nor a desirable option. Like really. I hope you realize the severity of your words here. I find this kind of behaviour extremely concerning to be honest. And don't tell me anything about how they are killing people with covid and being unjabbed and all, no, let's put this mess aside and take it for what it is: wishing death on human beings. This is not something you want to do nor wish on anyone. Really. Take a step back. This isn't good.

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@manshuk ok. Interesting words of concern from someone who couldn't care less about peoples immune vulnerability. I do wish death on people who deliberately obstruct healthcare workers saving patients lives, and increase risk to peoples lives. Which is what this "protesting crowd" here is doing. Its called obstruction.

 

Edit: I agree, it is not ok to wish death on anyone, but anyone obstructing health care and endangering the health of others (such as not getting vaccinated, looking at you, @Manshuk) is infringing on everyone else's rights to life and health. It is this very group of dumb people who breed Lone White Fucked Up Gunmen. I would love it if they turned upon their own. I wouldn't be volunteering to kill these people, but I would certainly step aside if someone else wanted to. I would be busy providing healthcare, rather than obstructing healthcare. 

I would not grieve if a lone white gunman mowed them down. I would celebrate, to be honest. It would feel like a victory for healthcare workers.

 

Edited by AnnaD
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@AnnaD I see where you’re coming from, but I would just like to say that I (like possibly many others) do still have family members who are unvaccinated. My brother *just* became fully vaccinated, thank goodness, but there are still some cousins and neighbors who are unvaccinated. And while I don’t agree or support their decision so far, I still hope they will not be mowed down by a lone gunman, or by covid. It would be devastating, either way.
 

Having said that, it does seem like every unvaccinated person has the potential to be the equivalent of a lone gunman, whether they mean to or not, @Manshuk. Unvaccinated people infect others at random, much like a lone shooter walking past a group of people and pulling the trigger willy-nilly. 
 

If you value the lives of other humans, get vaccinated. If you value your life, please get vaccinated.  


And since this thread is actually about Canada, I would just like to say that I enjoy the beautiful and funny images you have been posting @WolfAmethyst. Thank you!
 

 

Edited by Patty
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@Patty, my frustration and anger is with the protesting people here, (not your garden variety anti vaxxer quietly staying at home, wearing a mask, respecting public health measures) who are actively spreading the virus, defying public health measures, as it is obvious that THEIR RIGHTS TO SPREAD THE VIRUS AND BE AN ARSEHAT, are more important than those that they transmit the virus to, such as the immune vulnerable/elderly/young/people with cancer. These COVID-19 denying, anti vaxxer arsehat protestors mentioned here are creating more work spreading the virus, for an already exhausted and compassion fatigued healthcare worker group. Care work is not valued. I would not go out of my way to save these protestors (should a lone gunman mow them down). I would walk away from them and find something more worthwhile to do. And yes, I do think of lone gunmen when I see such utter selfish stupidity such as these people here. 

I am grateful for whomever gets vaccinated. If you don't get vaccinated, you are as lethal as my initial suggestion of a lone gunman and I will waste no time on you. 

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@AnnaD thanks! I get it.
 

My mom is a nurse at a local hospital, and she kept a stiff upper lip during the initial wave, but has been beside herself with frustration and grief since the covid units reopened this summer. 
 

I can’t help but think of a line from the John Donne poem, “no man is an island”.  We all need to do our part to protect each other. 

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The 65-year-old brother of a friend died today from COVID-19. He was unvaccinated, living in Edmonton, Alberta. Perhaps he would have made the choice to get vaccinated if he’d been living close to his siblings here in Ontario.

 

Alberta’s Chief Medical Officer acknowledged that she jumped the gun in moving the pandemic restrictions into ‘endemic’ mode too soon. Alberta’s population has been fighting for ‘their rights’ all the way along. I’m sure she’s been under a lot of pressure from the politicians who appear to be in denial and living in another reality.

 

The Pandemic became too political everywhere.
Alberta’s Premier is a Conservative and he was in the news regularly saying they didn’t need to wear masks or have lockdowns, that the pandemic was no worse than a bad flu.
It didn’t take very long for our Conservative Premier to distance himself from his former best buddy.

 

 

 

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@WolfAmethyst@Patty@AnnaD

 

I am attaching this letter written by the doctor of an unvaccinated patient. I read this in the paper on the weekend not realizing that it could be someone I know.

 

A LETTER TO AN UNVACCINATED PATIENT

 

This First Person article is a letter to an unvaccinated patient on life support from Raiyan Chowdhury, an intensive care doctor at Edmonton's Royal Alexandra Hospital.

 

Can you hear that?

 

The rhythm filling the silence. The hiss representing your gasp for breath. The ventilator struggling to meet your inhale and exhale. It reminds me of the ocean. The crash of the tide hitting the beach and then slowly retreating.

It's almost peaceful if it weren't so mechanical. It's almost soothing if it didn't mean your life was so fragile. This ventilator and its cadence being the only thing that separates your life here and now from what lies beyond. 

How did it come to this? Was it fear of the vaccine? Or narcissism? Or are you simply another victim of misinformation? We want to scream. We want to shout. If it would make a difference.

But we feel as silent as you.

 

For you, the tube connecting your lungs to the ventilator means that air can't pass over your vocal cords, resulting in utter silence. And after 16 months, it seems Albertans are tired of hearing from us. 

 

Different sides of the war

You are a mystery to me. I don't mean your age, your occupation, or your past medical history. That's all clear on the chart. I want to know you. I want to know the soul behind those eyes that are so clouded. You lie here in front of me exposed, but you remain a mirage. Perhaps it's the anesthesia, but I feel it's a strange disconnect for a job that's intimate in every other way.

My colleague looked you directly in the eyes as she slipped the endotracheal tube into your exhausted, listless body. She said you were kind. Sitting here, I wonder, what are your hopes and dreams? Will they go unfulfilled?

My only glimpse of the real you are the photos that your family has brought in. They serve as reminders of happier times. They are a shrine to your legacy as a person and father. In them, I see someone boisterous, warm and happy. You look loved. You've clearly done something right with your life.

 

In another time and place, I feel that I would have wanted to be your friend. That you could perhaps teach me about what's important in life and family.

So why does it feel right now that we are so different? Now that we are on different sides of a war — one vaccinated and one not. 

 

'Why was your dad not vaccinated?'

I spoke to your son by phone. He's far too young to lose his dad. I didn't know he lost his mom a few years ago. Without you, he'll have no one.

I shouldn't have asked, but I couldn't help it. "Why was your dad not vaccinated?"

Silence interrupted his tears for a second. He tells me that he begged you to get your shot, but you never did. He regrets not pushing you harder. The regret is so deep that I fear it may come to define his young adult life. It was your decision, but I wonder who is paying the price. It seems harshly unfair.

He cried the whole time I was on the phone with him. It was heartbreaking. I don't think I will forget it anytime soon.

I've always considered myself a strong individual. You don't do this type of work if you aren't. But I couldn't help my eyes from watering.

He wanted me to promise that you'll make it through this. I wanted to respond with a well-practised doctor line establishing the gravity of the situation while offering some hope.

But I couldn't do that to him.

"I promise."

If not for yourself, then why not for him?

What kind of society have we become when charlatans on social media have good people willing to risk everything based solely on their manipulative words? 

 

Frustration and sympathy

Anger isn't the right word for what I feel. Maybe frustration is. The nurse in your room is named Isabelle. She's a fairly new grad. She's doing this job for all the right reasons — like most of the nurses and respiratory therapists here. Not for the pay, social media recognition or the lifestyle, but to make an impact.

I wonder to myself if she will still be doing this job a year from now. After 16 months, gestures of gratitude for frontline workers have been replaced by jeers from protesters greeting nurses on their way to work.

Albertans are done with COVID even if COVID isn't done with them. 

There was a viral quote making the rounds on the internet from a doctor at his wit's end with the unvaccinated. He said that empathy wasn't an unlimited resource. 

Maybe that's the case, but not here.

 

My friend Cara is your respiratory therapist today — the brunette who takes the time to hold your hand while deep suctioning your lungs, clearing secretions that are slowly drowning you. She's one of the most empathetic people I know. 

After 16 months of this, she should be empty of sympathy. How much more can she give? But she isn't. I see her come in here and give you her best, day in and day out. It inspires me to do the same. 

Help me keep my promise to your son

I wish I could understand and rationalize your hesitancy or refusal, but maybe that's too much to ask of me. Instead, you'll get my best. 

When I see your listless body, I don't see politics. I see someone who needs my help. That's the reason we all chose to do this job. Let the protesters outside jeer and the haters online hate, and we'll meet them with a Ted Lasso-like kindness and unbreakable dedication to our patients — vaccinated or not. 

Can you hear that? The faint beeps down the hall. The nurse practitioner is intubating another one of your unvaccinated brethren. I should go.

Can I ask you a favour before I do? Please help me keep my promise to your son. 

 

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8 hours ago, AnnaD said:

@manshuk ok. Interesting words of concern from someone who couldn't care less about peoples immune vulnerability. I do wish death on people who deliberately obstruct healthcare workers saving patients lives, and increase risk to peoples lives. Which is what this "protesting crowd" here is doing. Its called obstruction.

 

Edit: I agree, it is not ok to wish death on anyone, but anyone obstructing health care and endangering the health of others (such as not getting vaccinated, looking at you, @Manshuk) is infringing on everyone else's rights to life and health. It is this very group of dumb people who breed Lone White Fucked Up Gunmen. I would love it if they turned upon their own. I wouldn't be volunteering to kill these people, but I would certainly step aside if someone else wanted to. I would be busy providing healthcare, rather than obstructing healthcare. 

I would not grieve if a lone white gunman mowed them down. I would celebrate, to be honest. It would feel like a victory for healthcare workers.

 

With that kind of mentality you become just as bad, if not worse, than the people you hate on. Think about it. You consider yourself the saviour, the one who "does the right thing", but if you look at history, every "bad guy" believes themselves to be the hero. I don't say that you are bad here. But imo, you should try to calm down for a moment and look at things from a different perspective. It sounds like you're stuck in an absolutist point of view and it very much concerns me, you know. What else causes people to be stuck into an all or nothing mentality, dehumanizing the enemy and wishing for their death? Cults. Totalitarian regimes and whatever led to genocide. This is extremely unhealthy behaviour we have here.

No, I don't have my shot still, but I refuse to play that stupid regressive game of "us vs them". The real enemy is not the one you think it is. I'm not your enemy. I'm no one's enemy. I wish you understood that you are going completely in the reverse of the image you want to give yourself. Empathetic, compassionate, hell, what is even compassionate in what you're saying right now?

Very few people in proportion to most die from COVID or have long haul effects. I probably had it without knowing and my immune system works just fine. My body has never failed me so far and normally shouldn't. And if you worry about the body count, you probably have a fair one yourself, since COVID is not the only disease in existence that can potentially kill its host. Nobody in my family died from it, nor do I know anyone else who did or was severely impacted by the virus itself. In fact, I know more about vaccine injuries from my mum's coworkers. None of my family members was happy about being forced to alter their bodies permanently with a foreign substance that hasn't been properly tested nor do we know the long term effects. It doesn't block you from getting nor transmitting it anyway, just lessens your symptoms. It's one thing to choose to inject yourself with this foreign substance, it's another to be coerced, and it's less the vaccine itself that worries me than the tyranny that is sweeping across the world and people are cheering on. THIS is the real danger. Totalitarianism and a cult-like mentality that I see infecting TLE more each day.

But anyway. It looks like you're not in a position to understand right now. It's fine. As I said, I'm no one's enemy. I'll now be retreating.

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@Manshuk I am NOT trying to be compassionate to antivaxxer people. The burden of medical evidence supports vaccination and public health measures. It doesn't support your wild claim that Covid-19 is another harmless 'flu. I don't respect the non vaccination or anti vaccination point of view, unless someone has a medical reason to not have the vaccine. If someone has a medical reason to not be vaccinated, then that is that, no argument. If however, you have no medical reason to not get vaccinated, then get vaccinated.                                                                                                                                                                                    An individual's choice matters very little relative to the health of the majority. But you disagree. I would have zero issue with your choice if your choice had no impact on other people. But your choice to remain unvaccinated has significant life threatening and fatal consequences for others. There is significant evidence from the CDC and public health research in the past 18 months stating that Covid-19 is life damaging and deadly.

 

That is great that your family were lucky. But that is the difference - your folk were lucky. Not everyone is lucky to escape from Covid-19 without harm or death. People very easily become unwell and die with Covid-19. Which if you had any concern for actively protecting people's health, you would see that you could do something to help these people, and you would choose vaccination. My anger is with your failure to take Covid-19 seriously as the significant health threat to people that it is. That you and others like you, who could get vaccinated,  choose not to get vaccinated, because you believe that your personal experience of Covid-19 not harming you, then applies to everyone, and you base your choices on your own experience, rather than basing your choices on the medical science/research on Covid-19 that has become easily available and proven over the past 18 months. You were among the few people it didn't harm. Well, Covid-19 has killed and injured plenty. Your stance is uneducated, ignorant and arrogant and your choice has consequences of serious risk and harm. The distinction between you and I, between the vaccinated and anti vaxxers, is my/our ability to listen to, and learn from, medical science on covid-19. I listen because I want to not transmit this virus, so I got vaccinated, and I vaccinate others who don't want to pass this virus on. It is your lack of ability to listen to and learn from medical science on covid-19 that increases your risk of transmitting Covid-19 and harming others length and quality of life. If you choose to get vaccinated, I will change my stance towards you. But if you choose to remain ignorant and uneducated about Covid-19 and vaccination, I will call you out on it. Safeguarding people's lives requires medical evidence, which vaccinators use. People who are vaccinated use that evidence too to keep themselves and their families alive and well. Antivaxxers are evidence free and that is obvious to many. It is simply knowing the difference between a choice and a choice with an evidence base. I tend to get empathetic when people respect medical evidence and research. I don't respect choices that lack medical evidence. 

 

By getting vaccinated you protect yourself and others. The fact that the burden of evidence supports vaccination is there in spite of your or my stance. 

Edited by AnnaD
clarity
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"Lone gunman", "antivaxxer" "uneducated, arrogant and ignorant" it is then. You can add sociopath if you want, while you're at it. Or call me a mass murderer and send a hitman to eliminate me. Go on. It's all emptiness.
 

Just know that I don't give a crap if some random 50 year old lady on the internet hates my guts. I don't know you. I've grown out of my "I want to be loved by everyone" phase. I'm out of here. Not like I could ever stand half of the active members here anyway.

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  • HOST & RESIDENT CHANNEL
6 hours ago, Manshuk said:

"Lone gunman", "antivaxxer" "uneducated, arrogant and ignorant" it is then. You can add sociopath if you want, while you're at it. Or call me a mass murderer and send a hitman to eliminate me. Go on. It's all emptiness.
 

Just know that I don't give a crap if some random 50 year old lady on the internet hates my guts. I don't know you. I've grown out of my "I want to be loved by everyone" phase. I'm out of here. Not like I could ever stand half of the active members here anyway.

 

WARNING POST:
1. Promoting harmful ideologies and spreading misinformation is not tolerated on TLE.
Anti-vax positions stem from a harmful ideology, not from any substantial science, any grounded reality, or any legitimate defense of freedoms. I read through your responses carefully because I care about what you have to say, but there is a LOT of misinformation and anecdotal assumptions in there to justify your logic. It is not meant to be insulting to call that out, but it has to be called out.
2. Straw manning is not tolerated on TLE. This is when someone misrepresents the position of the other person and then proceeds to refute that misrepresentation as a way to derail the conversation away from the actual subject being discussed. Shifting the conversation focus away from the subject and making it about yourself and your personal frustrations with being accepted is straw manning. No one said anything about hating your guts or not loving you. Insulting people's ages and condemning the community as a way to avoid to subject and make it about yourself doesn't allow for a good faith conversation. 

NOTE: I do appreciate calling out the "wishing death upon others" exchange because none of us want to sink this low into our humanity that we lose ourselves to such rage, so thank you for that, but I also appreciate the SYMBOLIC "death wish" to those who actively harm others because it is only meant to express incredible frustration but also compassion and passion for those who are put in harms way because of people who don't care about anyone. It is a bit ironic to call someone out for symbolically wishing death upon those who willfully harm others and this having absolutely no real world effects in any way, while defending those who actually, literally, and in very real world terms causes harm and death upon others.

 

I totally understand the symbolic wish for death on anti-vaxxers because all of these people who have refused vaccination are now the center of care for most hospitals and now those who are vulnerable, injured, and sick from other conditions are not only put in more danger by being forced to be around them, but they are also losing their much-needed medical care access because of the overload. Refusing to be vaccinated when we have the option to be vaccinated is proven to cause harm to others in a multitude of ways, but there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that choosing to be vaccinated harms anyone beyond very very rare allergic reactions.

This is a warning post because I know things can get heated about some subjects and I care about @Manshuk so I don't want this to lead to an exit from the community, but I also have to uphold the standards of this community and I just really do not want this to be a place where harmful ideologies are promoted or defended. So step back, recalibrate, chill, breathe, and remember that it is okay to have differences of opinions, but let's uphold some integrity in our communication here, okay?

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On 7/7/2021 at 6:12 AM, Maureen said:

I get how they feel, I do, but I'm fed up with "them" for not seeing the bigger picture. We're all exhausted and in need of a break from the stress and the tension and feeling powerless. Hell, I'm angry AT THE PEOPLE LIKE THIS who are angry at "the government". They remind me of children who have no fucking idea of what goes into keeping them safe, keeping all of us safe, and just react to the perceived (and real) authority. (Could be lots of incomplete or remnants of 3rd IMs going on here). Someone has to be in charge. We're not living in a state of anarchy... of no government. There has to, and had to be, grownups in the room, in the world, to make the hard decisions/choices for everyone's safety.

I didn't have time to read all of the anger at lockdown plus (it seems, I might be wrong, every provinces different public health mandates????? to this pandemic? rather than a central government public health mandate for which I can only shrug my shoulders at, sigh, and feel more sadness/anger mix at the futility of a non coordinated and conflicted, public health mandate across Canada if that is what has happened) I am reading all of this today. Yes @Maureen, what you said, this so much.

 

I am sorry that I wished death on the protestors (fucknuts that they are) protesting outside the hospital. I only wanted the protestors removed from harming patients/healthcare workers a significant physical distance from the hospital grounds. And my rage at their selfishness and stupidity triggered my banked hostility towards them.

@WolfAmethyst I have had time now to have read the entire article regarding the people who were protesting outside of the hospital. Thank you for that, although my main reaction/question to people protesting outside the hospital is how is protesting outside a hospital, legal, and permissable, in non pandemic times anyway? Where was the Canadian equivalent of the National Guard to remove these people from the land in front of the hospital so that their angry irrational presence wasn't obstructing the passage/egress of healthcare, so that they weren't making noise/threats/harm, that the patients and healthcare staff looking after the patients could hear, adding further stress and challenge to the patients condition and to the staffing conditions?

How is protesting outside a hospital ever ok in non pandemic times? Protesting outside a hospital is the equivalent of the "get the person who wants an abortion to run the gauntlet through the abortion protestors" scenario. Does Canada have protections against obstruction of delivery of healthcare (which includes keeping protestors and patients/healthcare staff away from each other)? Patients and healthcare staff require protection from harm in order to deliver healthcare. Where was their protection? 

 

@WolfAmethyst your article on the protestors explained why they gathered, thank you for that. But where was security or the Canadian equivalent of the National Guard, to remove these protestors from the hospital area so that the important work of protecting patients and healthcare workers, can continue? 

 

In New Zealand, the protestors would have been removed, if not by the police, then by the military, but then NZ has a coordinated non conflicting, all of government Covid19 public health mandated response..

 

I am trying to ask non rhetorical questions here. But I am more than aware that there is zero rational responses going on here in ?Ontario and that if that is the case I will move on to more constructive things either on TLE or in my day. I apologize for hijacking your thread, and I apologize to TLE.

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1 hour ago, AnnaD said:

But where was security or the Canadian equivalent of the National Guard, to remove these protestors from the hospital area so that the important work of protecting patients and healthcare workers, can continue? 

 

In New Zealand, the protestors would have been removed, if not by the police, then by the military, but then NZ has a coordinated non conflicting, all of government Covid19 public health mandated response..

The craziness and size of these protests unfortunately caught Canada's authorities by surprise.  They ended up outnumbered.

You're right that such a thing shouldn't happen.  I never expected to see it this bad here.

 

I'm just glad it didn't get violent in the ways which would have led to a military response.  The current Prime Minister's father once used the military in the way you're referring to- in response to domestic terrorism in the 1970s.  It did not go well.   Any politician since publicly regards such measures as an option of extreme last resort, to be avoided at all costs.

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/1970-pierre-trudeau-says-just-watch-me-during-october-crisis

 

All Canadian hospitals have their own internal security, and receive prompt backup from their local police when needed.  Normally that's enough to keep things civil, both inside and outside medical buildings.

In the end, the police were only able to escort patients and ambulances through.  They just didn't have the manpower to non-violently remove all the protesters from all the hospitals in their jurisdictions.

 

The following day, every hospital's level of security and police protection was increased significantly.
Here's hoping this doesn't happen again.

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@WolfAmethyst, thank you for providing closure on this episode for me and for informing me of what happened and the rationale why certain choices were made and why Armed Guard wasn't used.                                                                                                                                                                                                          I realised that choosing to use Armed Guard would incite these oxygen thieves more. It is fucking unbelievable that there are people this selfish who cause more harm by protesting

3 minutes ago, WolfAmethyst said:

I'm just glad it didn't get violent in the ways which would have led to a military response.  The current Prime Minister's father once used the military in the way you're referring to- in response to domestic terrorism in the 1970s.  It did not go well.   Any politician since publicly regards such measures as an option of extreme last resort, to be avoided at all costs.

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/1970-pierre-trudeau-says-just-watch-me-during-october-crisis

 

All Canadian hospitals have their own internal security, and receive prompt backup from their local police when needed.  Normally that's enough to keep things civil, both inside and outside medical buildings.

In the end, the police were only able to escort patients and ambulances through.  They just didn't have the manpower to non-violently remove all the protesters from all the hospitals in their jurisdictions.

 

The following day, every hospital's level of security and police protection was increased significantly.
Here's hoping this doesn't happen again.

 

It just reminds me so much of the White House insurrection this year. Emboldened by it. I hope that it doesn't happen again, because god knows that province won't have the nursing and medical staff to deal with it. I hope that the ICU capacity in Canada can cope with the influx that selfish protests such as these cause. I shake my head and I am going to garden. Thank you.

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